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Thread: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

  1. #331
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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
    Even Texas' government data says there are more than a "few" that lack restricted, now-required ID's
    Anyone who lacks an ID at this point has only himself/herself to blame.
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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Do Tax Cuts Increase Government Revenue? - Forbes

    Page Not Found - Debate Politics Forumstax-cuts-increase-government-revenu...Forbes


    Oct 15, 2012 - Tax cuts lead to increased government revenue...and this article proves it!
    Sorry Jack but that's gets an F- in any serious economics class. It's a shame a supposedly 'serious' magazine like Forbes would print such obvious propaganda, but this is the kind of obvious hackery Laffer Curve proponents have to resort to to 'prove' their belief in a Tax Santa Clause. Some (a partial list) obvious problems:

    1) The high INDIVIDUAL tax rates in the period up through Reagan applied to a tiny sliver of earners - less than 1%, but the graph includes revenue from income taxes below that max rate, what the other 99% paid, payroll taxes, corporate income taxes, excise taxes and all other government receipts. If you want to see what happened to individual income taxes, analyze individual income taxes.
    2) It ignores inflation.
    3) Ignores population growth.
    4) Ignores the normal economic growth that has occurred regardless of tax rates.
    5) Ignores interest rate changes
    6) Ignores changes to the tax base - loophole closures and what not.
    7) Finally, the question isn't whether revenues following tax rates will, ignoring all the above, increase or decrease revenues over some period, it's whether tax cuts raise more money than what would be collected without the rate cuts. As I've pointed out elsewhere, GDP grew about 33% under both Reagan and Clinton. Real tax revenues grew about 20% under Reagan (less than GDP growth) but 47% under Clinton, or 2.5 times the growth under Reagan. Clinton RAISED rates, Reagan cut them.

  3. #333
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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sorry Jack but that's gets an F- in any serious economics class. It's a shame a supposedly 'serious' magazine like Forbes would print such obvious propaganda, but this is the kind of obvious hackery Laffer Curve proponents have to resort to to 'prove' their belief in a Tax Santa Clause. Some (a partial list) obvious problems:

    1) The high INDIVIDUAL tax rates in the period up through Reagan applied to a tiny sliver of earners - less than 1%, but the graph includes revenue from income taxes below that max rate, what the other 99% paid, payroll taxes, corporate income taxes, excise taxes and all other government receipts. If you want to see what happened to individual income taxes, analyze individual income taxes.
    2) It ignores inflation.
    3) Ignores population growth.
    4) Ignores the normal economic growth that has occurred regardless of tax rates.
    5) Ignores interest rate changes
    6) Ignores changes to the tax base - loophole closures and what not.
    7) Finally, the question isn't whether revenues following tax rates will, ignoring all the above, increase or decrease revenues over some period, it's whether tax cuts raise more money than what would be collected without the rate cuts. As I've pointed out elsewhere, GDP grew about 33% under both Reagan and Clinton. Real tax revenues grew about 20% under Reagan (less than GDP growth) but 47% under Clinton, or 2.5 times the growth under Reagan. Clinton RAISED rates, Reagan cut them.
    #1 is just special pleading. The rates are the rates. #2 through #6 apply to all surveys all the time: inflation, population growth, economic growth, interest rate changes and tax base changes are constants regardless of tax regime. As for #7, Clinton reaped the benefit of the holiday from history bequeathed to him by RWR via Cold War victory. Post #328 is sensible.
    Last edited by Jack Hays; 10-25-14 at 05:01 PM.
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  4. #334
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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, you are worried about my margin of error based in multiple estimates presented in courts, subject to discovery, cross examination, etc., and so you adopt an estimate based on nothing. Explain that logic for me.
    News flash......nobody is going to take numbers with a plus or minus error of 33% seriously.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, I have, and what I believe about the tax system is based on the evidence. I presented some of it above. What part did I get wrong?
    Basic math. It's my bet that you let computer programs similar to TurboTax do the work for you. Most people who do taxes as a business have much greater accounting skills then you are showing.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, G and T are independent variables. D is the dependent variable, which is affected by BOTH G AND T.

    Point in English is deficits are, according to math, affected by spending levels and tax revenues.

    And I was responding to this false, but commonly accepted right wing talking point: "And you can stop trying to connect the deficit to [tax cuts]." GOPers cut taxes, revenues drop, they are too chicken s**t to cut spending, run up deficits, then tell their followers that the deficits had NOTHING to do with the tax cuts, deficits are caused by too much spending....
    You are not even attempting to use basic math. Let me simply it for you. Let's say I get a tax cut that gives me 10% more income. That's 10% more disposable income. If I increase my spending 20%, I am going to end up with more debt despite the the increase in disposable income. My additional spending would be the problem. Not the tax cut. The same goes with the government. You cannot blame the tax cut for higher deficits. The JFK, Reagan, and Bush(W) tax cuts all resulted in an increase in tax revenue. Therefore the tax cuts did not cause higher deficits. Increased government spending did. I really should not have to explain it to you.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    You are not even attempting to use basic math. Let me simply it for you. Let's say I get a tax cut that gives me 10% more income. That's 10% more disposable income. If I increase my spending 20%, I am going to end up with more debt despite the the increase in disposable income. My additional spending would be the problem. Not the tax cut. The same goes with the government. You cannot blame the tax cut for higher deficits. The JFK, Reagan, and Bush(W) tax cuts all resulted in an increase in tax revenue. Therefore the tax cuts did not cause higher deficits. Increased government spending did. I really should not have to explain it to you.
    Then why is there a lot of money out in the Cayman Islands, not in the United States.
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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Do we want them going to the Republican party?
    I think it's pretty obvious that most illicit votes go to the Democrats. Generally, Democrats simply have no morals. They are just plain evil. Lying, murdering and cheating has been their game ever since the institution of the party.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    I think it's pretty obvious that most illicit votes go to the Democrats. Generally, Democrats simply have no morals. They are just plain evil. Lying, murdering and cheating has been their game ever since the institution of the party.
    Just because most prison inmates are Democrats doesn't mean that all Democrats are dishonest.

    Of course I could be wrong.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    #1 is just special pleading. The rates are the rates. #2 through #6 apply to all surveys all the time: inflation, population growth, economic growth, interest rate changes and tax base changes are constants regardless of tax regime. As for #7, Clinton reaped the benefit of the holiday from history bequeathed to him by RWR via Cold War victory.
    It's not special pleading. The dependent variable in this "analysis" is total nominal Federal revenues (individual income taxes + corporate income taxes + payroll taxes + excise taxes + other Federal receipts). It's just illegitimate to have as your ONLY independent variable the highest tax rate on a small sliver of individuals. We would expect that the rate change on 1% of individuals would affect only taxes paid by 1% of individuals. Why would changes in tax rates on Buffett affect payroll taxes? Or the taxes paid by the median worker, or any worker not subject to the top rates. In fact we could lower tax rates on the 1%, raise them on everyone else, and the tax revenues on higher rates on the bottom 99% would be counted, by this hack analysis, as due to the rate drop on the 1%. It's bogus. It gets an F-.

    I'll just address 6 - changes to the tax base. Tax revenues = Tax Rate X Tax base. If you want to explain changes in Tax Revenues, it's NOT OK to ignore changes in the Base. FICA ends a little over 100k. If we eliminate the cap, we'll see a large increase in payroll taxes and total tax collections in that graph above, and it will have NOTHING to do with the top marginal income tax rate. Ignoring the base means F-.

    Besides, the premise here is simple. The downside to more spending - e.g. to pay for a war - is MORE TAX CUTS!!! YEAH!!! It's gutless and cowardly and reckless for the GOP to sell that free lunch nonsense as serious fiscal policy. It tells the GOP base that there are no tough choices in government. Tax cuts have no downside. You can't really believe that.....

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