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Thread: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This isn't the thread for discussing the mortgage crisis, but I have a hard time believing the WORLD WIDE housing and credit bubble is the fault of Clinton and CRA.... And this 'liberal' reserves plenty of blame for Clinton - end of Glass-Steagall, the prohibitions against regulating derivatives, and more.



    I know nominal tax revenue went up under Reagan and have said so explicitly on other threads. The claim (one of several) was democrats reneged on a deal with Reagan and the big spending was all the fault of democrats. What I pointed out was Reagan proposed spending levels (his actual budgets submitted to Congress), slightly HIGHER than the budgets ultimately passed by Congress, and backed that claim up with a link to the evidence. If you want to square the "democrats reneged on a deal, deficits were the fault of big spending democrats" with "Reagan proposed spending higher than levels passed by democrats" be my guest.



    There is nothing there to debate. I'm for some spending, opposed to other spending. If you want to debate something concrete, we should take it to another thread. I'm generally not impressed with republican claims of 'fiscal responsibility' since the record is they cut taxes, ramp up spending, ignore deficits until a democrat takes over the POTUS, then claim that it's a crisis and we must take a meat axe to all spending that benefits the poors and olds.
    I don't think you have a clue what the state of the economy was like when Reagan took office and where that so called spending went. It wasn't what you want to believe but it did create a peace dividend that you and others want to ignore. that was money that Clinton used to come close to balancing the budget although he still added 1.4 trillion to the debt, another fact liberals want to ignore. I also believe you ignored what was actually proposed and what was actually spent and approved. I know this is hard for liberals to understand but Congress spends the money or authorizes that spending. Here is the truth you want to ignore plus the economic growth, job creation, and movement of lower class into the middle and upper classes.

    http://www.ipi.org/docLib/reagandf.pdf-OpenElement.pdf

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I don't think you have a clue what the state of the economy was like when Reagan took office and where that so called spending went. It wasn't what you want to believe but it did create a peace dividend that you and others want to ignore. that was money that Clinton used to come close to balancing the budget although he still added 1.4 trillion to the debt, another fact liberals want to ignore. I also believe you ignored what was actually proposed and what was actually spent and approved. I know this is hard for liberals to understand but Congress spends the money or authorizes that spending. Here is the truth you want to ignore plus the economic growth, job creation, and movement of lower class into the middle and upper classes.

    http://www.ipi.org/docLib/reagandf.pdf-OpenElement.pdf
    Sure I do - he took over following the inflation of the 1970s, and the economy was at a standstill because of Volcker's sky high rates at the end of the Carter era to snuff out inflation, which the Fed managed to do. That caused two recessions early in Reagan's terms.

    And I'm not arguing about 'where the spending went' just that the tax cuts reduced revenue, spending increased, Reagan proposed spending increases, republicans controlled the Senate for much of Reagan's 8 years and the spending levels were a bipartisan thing.

    I will agree that if your apologia link is correct, it does more or less capture the GOP position on fiscal matters. What it claims is the following was the fiscal plan of Reagan:

    1) Cut taxes on the wealthy
    2) Raise taxes on working people with large increases in payroll taxes
    3) Ramp up military spending
    4) Slash domestic spending, slash entitlements.

    So the effect if enacted is a shift in tax burden from the rich to working class Americans, and a shift in spending from the middle class, poor, and seniors to the military industrial complex. I don't dispute that, in big picture terms, that's the roughly typical GOP agenda. I can't imagine why Congress didn't go along with it all.....

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Sure I do - he took over following the inflation of the 1970s, and the economy was at a standstill because of Volcker's sky high rates at the end of the Carter era to snuff out inflation, which the Fed managed to do. That caused two recessions early in Reagan's terms.

    And I'm not arguing about 'where the spending went' just that the tax cuts reduced revenue, spending increased, Reagan proposed spending increases, republicans controlled the Senate for much of Reagan's 8 years and the spending levels were a bipartisan thing.

    I will agree that if your apologia link is correct, it does more or less capture the GOP position on fiscal matters. What it claims is the following was the fiscal plan of Reagan:

    1) Cut taxes for all taxpayers
    2) Raise taxes on working people to cover the shortfall in SS which they will expect a return when they retire. FICA funds SS and FICA was increased
    3) Ramp up military spending to create a peace dividend and Defense spending went up 200 billion dollars during the Reagan term
    4) Congress increased domestic spending, and entitlements Congress spent like a kid in the candy store, Federal Income tax revenue increased 60%
    Corrected it for you

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Corrected it for you
    That's fine, but you realize, I hope, that the payroll tax increases also reduced the reported deficits during the Reagan years, and if we account for the "return" that retirees will get when they retire, deficits were FAR higher than reported. We accumulated roughly $3 Trillion in SS 'surpluses' since then that are now slowly being spent down as the baby boomers retire. That $3 trillion reduced reported deficits from Reagan to roughly now.

    Also too, total discretionary domestic spending approved by Congress (this does include military spending) was less than Reagan requested.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-CDO...c18-1-12-4.pdf

    Finally, yes, nominal collections went up by 60%, but that doesn't mean the big initial Reagan tax cuts, followed by six years of Reagan tax increases, paid for themselves.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    People can make any claim they want, but not in court, if they do that it is perjury.
    When the people who have been making these claims in public were sworn in, their story changed.
    Now that there is a place to get a free voter ID in every county, I wonder how many will actually be requested.
    Not many. Pretty much everyone there likely already has ID.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, you've made it clear that you have no interest in actually investigating that claim or any others about the difficulty and/or expense of getting IDs, particularly in Texas where 1/3 of counties have no office that issues the "free" IDs..
    There is no dificulty whatsoever in getting valid IDs. People do have to push themselves away from the couch and go to the DMV or equivalent. Free is good, however most of the so-called disenfranchised spend more then the cost of a drivers license or state ID on tobacco products and booze on a regular basis.



    I was being sarcastic. I own 7 guns and have nothing at all against gun owners, rednecks or not. And yes, the 2nd protects the Constitutional RIGHT to own a gun and the 14th, 15th, 19th, 24th and 26th protect the constitutional RIGHT to vote. If you want to claim that voting rules changes have nothing to do with rights, then don't be surprised when you get called on it.
    None of those amendments give anyone the right to vote without being legally registered to vote. Valid photo ID just keeps it honest....something democrats don't seem concerned with.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It depends on how you define the term 'unlikely.' About 600,000 or so (+ or - 200k) registered voters in Texas do not - across the country in states that passed the new restrictive photo ID rules, the totals are in millions. That's a small percentage of all registered voters.
    Plus or minus 200K? Sorry. I don't buy figures with that large of a margin of error.

    What's odd is you dismiss these millions, then place great importance and weight on the literally less than a handful of cases of documented voter impersonation fraud in Texas over the past DECADE. 10s of millions of votes, TWO cases of impersonation fraud. Similar rates of "voter" fraud at the polls in other states - literally no where is there evidence of a widespread problem that rises above trivial, 10 or less over years, millions of votes kind of trivial. So it's tough to identify the logic of your approach.
    The real issue is the intellectual dishonesty in your approach. You are asking me to buy a given number plus or minus 200K, while at the same touting a alleged count of two cases of impersonation fraud. I really don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe the numbers are that low in any state, much less Texas. Not that it matters. No citizen who is legally entitled to vote is disenfranchised by having to show a valid photo ID.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Not many. Pretty much everyone there likely already has ID.
    I love the way you just disregard all facts in evidence - not only in Texas but in every state that has passed photo ID and estimated the number affected by the new rules! It must be wonderful to be unconstrained by any evidence at all!

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    There is no dificulty whatsoever in getting valid IDs. People do have to push themselves away from the couch and go to the DMV or equivalent. Free is good, however most of the so-called disenfranchised spend more then the cost of a drivers license or state ID on tobacco products and booze on a regular basis.
    And when you're not disregarding evidence, you just create your own out of thin air! Fantastic....

    None of those amendments give anyone the right to vote without being legally registered to vote. Valid photo ID just keeps it honest....something democrats don't seem concerned with.
    Any ID keeps it honest enough so that in Tennessee there have been next to no cases of impersonation fraud in decades. The restricted forms add nothing to the "keeps it honest" efforts.

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    Re: SC allows Texas to use New Voter ID Law

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I love the way you just disregard all facts in evidence - not only in Texas but in every state that has passed photo ID and estimated the number affected by the new rules! It must be wonderful to be unconstrained by any evidence at all!
    There is no such evidence, only partisan whining.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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