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Thread: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

  1. #61
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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    No, I just don't see how causing economic damage for no medical changes is intelligent.

    I do not believe that placating the ignorant and giving politicians things to say that are economically damaging is intelligent when the actual medical benefit doesn't exist.

    Maybe you can answer the question Helix is avoiding?

    What's the difference between blocking entry to a 6 days infected from West Africa but letting in a Frenchmen who's 3 days infected?

    Don't think badly of me if I think you can't do it.

    It's obvious to me that you are working under the truly asinine assumption that there are direct flights between West Africa and the US daily in large numbers. And that we could somehow block them from getting on planes in West Africa. When in reality, few are flying at all and even fewer are flying direct. Most of them are flying into regional European, Asian or Middle Eastern hubs who are we are not proposing to block. Which renders the whole thing insane as if we were honest about an actual disease embargo, we'd stop that ENTIRE plane's passenger list from entering the US. Anywhere someone who's from West Africa has to be on the embargo list or otherwise, it's just pointless.

    Infected person flies from Liberia to Marseille. Infects a French woman sharing a cab. She then goes home and shares a meal with her sister who's scheduled to fly to the US catches a plane to Paris and then to the US.

    How has blocking West African flights to the US stopped the disease? I suspect you won't even ATTEMPT to answer that. The logistical problems are why people who understand this issue and international travel realize it's pointless. You do not hence why you are a big proponent of something you do not understand.
    Its markable that when it comes to open borders and ebola that you are suddenly pro-capitalism.

    Nobody cares about the economies of those nations-not if it means worldwide spread of the disease. We can't play with fire here-your hubris wont do.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    We'd make a giant mess in terms of holding them. Either we'd deny them access into the US or deny them access at the European/Asian/Middle Eastern hub. That's going to cause nightmares for the airlines. Furthermore, it doesn't do a thing to stop the spread of disease elsewhere to groups we aren't barring. Like I said, what's the difference between blocking entry to a 6 days infected from West Africa but letting in a Frenchmen who's 3 days infected? This doesn't solve anything other than making some people feel like they're doing something when they're really not.

    And how are you going to get the West African governments to do that?
    These are many of the realities of a true committment to keeping Ebola from (re-)entering the country again. Very unpleasant.

    But IMO, may be necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #63
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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    We'd make a giant mess in terms of holding them. Either we'd deny them access into the US or deny them access at the European/Asian/Middle Eastern hub. That's going to cause nightmares for the airlines. Furthermore, it doesn't do a thing to stop the spread of disease elsewhere to groups we aren't barring. Like I said, what's the difference between blocking entry to a 6 days infected from West Africa but letting in a Frenchmen who's 3 days infected? This doesn't solve anything other than making some people feel like they're doing something when they're really not.
    and as i said, it won't completely solve the problem. there's still no good reason to have non-quarantined passengers from a nation where Ebola is endemic traveling on commercial airlines while the disease is spreading. sick patients can be brought in under controlled conditions on military flights for treatment, and the rest can be quarantined before getting on a plane going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    And how are you going to get the West African governments to do that?
    we don't let anyone from an infected region who hasn't completed a 21 day quarantine into the country on a commercial airline. if the airlines won't play ball and choose to let non-quarantined passengers fly, they pay for the passengers to be quarantined for 21 days upon landing. the problem will solve itself quite quickly under a policy like that.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    This implies Im apprehensive or evasive, or simply disingenuous. Not at all true. I work with infectious patients daily, and this is essentially like opening the doors of an isolation ward and expecting everything to turn up roses.

    When it comes to the health and welfare of millions, thats just not good enough.


    Anyone who thinks that massive, hysterical, over-reaction is the solution to this or any other problem is a mighty poor manager.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Anyone who thinks that massive, hysterical, over-reaction is the solution to this or any other problem is a mighty poor manager.
    I don't think you can overreact to something as potentially devastating as a killer epidemic, at least in preparation and containment. Once it's full blown, then panicking does no good.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Anyone who thinks that massive, hysterical, over-reaction is the solution to this or any other problem is a mighty poor manager.
    Look at the mentality in Liberia. Note the date of this documentary. Note where the vast majority of deaths have been. Note that its been estimated only a small fraction of cases have been reported. Note that the nations in who have prevented outbreak did it in large part by closing the borders.

    This is where we act, you can opine from europe, pal.

    Ebola virus epidemic in West Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Last edited by US Conservative; 10-18-14 at 02:35 AM.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't think you can overreact to something as potentially devastating as a killer epidemic, at least in preparation and containment. Once it's full blown, then panicking does no good.
    It's not even a 'full blown' epidemic in those West African countries. It's not in the cities.

    If you avoid those villages and, outside those areas, touching and intimate contact with strangers, you are very unlikely to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's not even a 'full blown' epidemic in those West African countries. It's not in the cities.

    If you avoid those villages and, outside those areas, touching and intimate contact with strangers, you are very unlikely to get it.

    West Africa could face up to 10,000 new Ebola cases a week within two months, the World Health Organization warned Tuesday, adding that the death rate in the current outbreak has risen to 70 percent.

    WHO assistant director-general Dr. Bruce Aylward gave the grim figures during a news conference in Geneva. Previously, the agency had estimated the Ebola mortality rate at around 50 percent overall. In contrast, in events such as flu pandemics, the death rate is typically under 2 percent.

    Acknowledging that Ebola was "a high mortality disease," Aylward said the U.N. health agency was still focused on trying to get sick people isolated and provide treatment as early as possible.

    He told reporters if the world's response to the Ebola crisis isn't stepped up within 60 days, "a lot more people will die" and health workers will be stretched even further. Experts say the epidemic is doubling in size about every three weeks.
    WHO: 10,000 New Ebola Cases Per Week Could Be Seen - ABC News

    How bad do you want it to be, before it's gets full blown containment efforts?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's not even a 'full blown' epidemic in those West African countries. It's not in the cities.

    If you avoid those villages and, outside those areas, touching and intimate contact with strangers, you are very unlikely to get it.
    Look at how fast the cases are rising-its exponential.


    The latest mortality rate I read today was 71%, and its estimated only 1/4 of cases have been reported.

    Look at the number of isolation beds in these countries...
    Current bed capacity in countries with active cases as at 12 Oct 2014.[157]
    Countries Existing beds Planned beds Percentage of existing/Planned beds
    Guinea 160 260 50%
    Liberia 620 2,930 21%
    Sierra Leone 346 1,198 29%
    Total 1,126 4,418 25%
    The economic effects have already been detrimental...
    Economic effects
    In addition to the loss of life, the outbreak is having a number of significant economic impacts.

    Markets and shops are closing, due to travel restrictions, cordon sanitaire, or fear of human contact, leading to loss of income for producers and traders.[239]
    Movement of people away from affected areas has disturbed agricultural activities.[240][241] The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) has warned that the outbreak could endanger harvest and food security in West Africa.[242]
    Tourism is directly impacted in affected countries.[243] Other countries in Africa which are not directly affected by the virus have also reported adverse effects on tourism.[244]
    Many airlines have suspended flights to the area.[245]
    Foreign mining companies have withdrawn non-essential personnel, deferred new investment, and cut back operations.[241][246][247]
    The outbreak is straining the finances of governments, with Sierra Leone using Treasury bills to fund the fight against the virus.[248]
    The IMF is considering expanding assistance to Guinea, Sierra Leone, and Liberia as their national deficits are ballooning and their economies contract sharply.[249]
    On 8 October, the World Bank issued a report which estimated overall economic impacts of between $3.8 billion and $32.6 billion, depending on the extent of the outbreak and the speed with which it can be contained. The economic impact would be felt most severely in the 3 affected countries, but with wider impact felt across the broader West African region.[250][251]
    As you can see the economies of these nations is already kaput.
    Now, many in these regions STILL believe that Ebola is a myth, and they continue to eat bush mean and literally "massage" the stomach contents and bowels out of the dead, and bathe in the same water. They dont believe its a problem, some there think its a scam to get money because the govt's there have run the countries into the ground with little to show from massive spending from foreign aid.

    Worst of all, the estimates say that within 3 months, there could be several million dead from this disease-they can't handle the load now.

    Now, knowing this, knowing how the locals think-knowing that we have already seen this disease spread to our nation-KNOWING where this outbreak is heading, how can you be against the SAME successful iso precautions (closing borders to people from outbreak nations) that have been used in Africa being used here? Why would you want to take that chance when you dont have to?

    Thats what I'd like to know.

    And again-Im not saying we shouldnt help, we should. But we need to protect ourselves as well.
    Last edited by US Conservative; 10-18-14 at 02:54 AM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't think you can overreact to something as potentially devastating as a killer epidemic, at least in preparation and containment.
    Once it's full blown, then panicking does no good.


    Anyone can over-react to anything. it happens all of the time.

    It's not effective and it doesn't get the job done.

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