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Thread: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    There exists a little book called a passport (socialists would like to see that done away with-workers unite!) and in that book we can see where people are from, and where they have been. If its an outbreak nation, they dont get to come to the US.
    Again you keep failing to address the hub problem. You are once again operating under the asinine notion that there are lots of direct flights from West Africa to the US (last I checked, there are a grand total of zero). Look, your condescending attitude when you have demonstrated sheer, unending ignorance doesn't help you. It just makes me look at you in an even worse light.

    You've cowardly run multiple times from explaining how your system stops people are infected in a hub not from West Africa from entering the Us. Furthermore, you're proposing a complete embargo on travel including people who aren't infected purely because their passport is from a country suffering from the disease. Pray tell, why should we ban someone from the Congo who's been working in South Africa who flew to Dubai and is on a connecting flight to LA from entering the country? Furthermore, your proposal allows everyone who's been in contact with an infected person who doesn't have a passport from that area or stamp to fly into the US. Can you even explain how a regional flight hub works?

    This is quite basic, guy.
    Only if you have zero understanding of the world's global travel system. Which you apparently do.

    You cannot discuss a SINGLE actual detail here. Why is that?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Again you keep failing to address the hub problem. You are once again operating under the asinine notion that there are lots of direct flights from West Africa to the US (last I checked, there are a grand total of zero). Look, your condescending attitude when you have demonstrated sheer, unending ignorance doesn't help you. It just makes me look at you in an even worse light.

    You've cowardly run multiple times from explaining how your system stops people are infected in a hub not from West Africa from entering the Us. Furthermore, you're proposing a complete embargo on travel including people who aren't infected purely because their passport is from a country suffering from the disease. Pray tell, why should we ban someone from the Congo who's been working in South Africa who flew to Dubai and is on a connecting flight to LA from entering the country? Furthermore, your proposal allows everyone who's been in contact with an infected person who doesn't have a passport from that area or stamp to fly into the US. Can you even explain how a regional flight hub works?



    Only if you have zero understanding of the world's global travel system. Which you apparently do.

    You cannot discuss a SINGLE actual detail here. Why is that?
    I dont know how this could be made any more clear. The number of hubs does not matter. The number of SICK or EXPOSED who can get here does. We KNOW where people coming here are coming from (save the illegal border hoppers) and if its from anywhere recently experiencing an outbreak they dont get to come in.

    This is not complicated, stop saying hub.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But how do you even do a 21 day period outside of isolation before they fly? Are they suppose to fly into hub, get into an isolation chamber for 21 days and then fly out? How are you suppose to measure and enforce this? This whole thing isn't even doable. What's the point in an 21 day period if they're flying out from West Africa as it is? Say someone somehow manages to stay isolated for 21 days, on the bus to the airport, they encounter someone infected coughing up blood. What now? They've got the 21 days but now they're infected. This doesn't work.

    But there are so many holes that render this pointless that the only thing it will do is placate ignorant people and give politicians something to say. The disruption alone in Europe will cost millions to billions and the impact upon our own health will be immaterial if that. As far as I'm concerned, Europe, Asia and the Middle East are already infected. Too many people have flown from West Africa to hubs and exposed millions of people. The only way a travel embargo will work is if we stop all international flights.
    1. has the commercial airline passenger been in areas of West Africa where Ebola is prevalent?

    2. can the passenger demonstrate that he or she has undergone a 21 day quarantine?

    if yes / yes, the passenger enters the country

    if yes / no, the passenger is quarantined at the airline's expense.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    A large number of medical and travel experts are against this and have simply accepted that Ebola is going to travel around the world regardless of what we do in terms of transit restrictions.
    ok. what is the advantage of doing nothing?

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    1. has the commercial airline passenger been in areas of West Africa where Ebola is prevalent?

    2. can the passenger demonstrate that he or she has undergone a 21 day quarantine?

    if yes / yes, the passenger enters the country

    if yes / no, the passenger is quarantined at the airline's expense.
    How do you prove 21 day quarantine? How do we prove effective quarantine from home to airport? Most of these people are using public transportation. There are simply too many gaps here. Plus, this does nothing to stop the hub problem. And what if you're changing carriers in the hub? People are going to get stranded in the hubs when their carrier to the US blocks them from flying which only makes things worse as you now are exposing huge numbers of otherwise off the radar people to the disease. This is actually worse than what we had before as a potential long term exposure to the disease is now occurring rather than transient exposure.

    ok. what is the advantage of doing nothing?
    Use the money we'd waste on this to actually fight the disease. Not put people into a sense of false security that a system that won't do anything is effective. Not strand infected people in hubs that millions of people use daily in long term positions causing even greater exposure.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I dont know how this could be made any more clear. The number of hubs does not matter. The number of SICK or EXPOSED who can get here does. We KNOW where people coming here are coming from (save the illegal border hoppers) and if its from anywhere recently experiencing an outbreak they dont get to come in.

    This is not complicated, stop saying hub.
    Jesus. You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

    Hubs are vastly important because we cannot control the flights between them. You are again operating from asinine ignorant positions. No, US carriers do not operate any material amount of flights from West Africa to ME/Asian/European hubs. Therefore we cannot force them stop flying. Therefore, we cannot stop the spread of West Africans from West Africa via plane to regional hubs that serve millions of people. Therefore hubs are exceptionally important. You again do not understand and it's getting absurdly annoying how you keep pretending you have clue about this topic.

    You claim that the number of sick and exposed is important at the same time saying hubs don't matter, which 100% proves you are completely ignorant. If you actually understood this topic (which you do not), you'd realize that the method of transit relies on hubs and as long as these hubs are being served by carriers flying people from West Africa everyone who travels through that hub is potentially exposed. That's why hubs matter. Again, you asinine argument is reliant upon the asinine belief that West Africans are flying to America directly.

    Say someone does this, flies from West Africa to Bangkok on a one way flight. They've also booked another flight to LA. They get stopped from boarding the LA flight. Now they are stuck in the Bangkok hub which is the the regional hub. Now you've just put a potential long term infected person in an area where huge numbers of people travel daily. Rather than just expose a relative few to transient exposure, you've now put a long term exposure problem in one of the world's busiest airports. Good job, you've now made the problem worse.

    This is complicated and you do not understand any of it. It's obvious you don't understand the first thing about global air travel.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 10-25-14 at 11:04 PM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How do you prove 21 day quarantine? How do we prove effective quarantine from home to airport? Most of these people are using public transportation. There are simply too many gaps here. Plus, this does nothing to stop the hub problem. And what if you're changing carriers in the hub? People are going to get stranded in the hubs when their carrier to the US blocks them from flying which only makes things worse as you now are exposing huge numbers of otherwise off the radar people to the disease. This is actually worse than what we had before as a potential long term exposure to the disease is now occurring rather than transient exposure.
    as i've already explained to you (and will not explain again,) we know the full travel history of everyone entering the country. if the airline cannot prove that the passenger has been quarantined, the airline pays for quarantine at the point of entry. once it affects their bottom line, the airlines will find a way. for others coming here seeking treatment, we can utilize military flights.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Use the money we'd waste on this to actually fight the disease. Not put people into a sense of false security that a system that won't do anything is effective. Not strand infected people in hubs that millions of people use daily in long term positions causing even greater exposure.
    this is not a good reason to let potentially sick people into the country on commercial flights. every time one of them comes in, we spend tens of thousands of dollars tracking down everyone that they may have come in contact with.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    as i've already explained to you (and will not explain again,) we know the full travel history of everyone entering the country. if the airline cannot prove that the passenger has been quarantined, the airline pays for quarantine at the point of entry. once it affects their bottom line, the airlines will find a way. for others coming here seeking treatment, we can utilize military flights.
    But the quarantine itself is unenforceable for reasons I've stated. That's the whole lynchpin. Furthermore, how are you suppose to enforce penalties on carriers that do not service American cities? An African airliner flying to Paris and has zero US operations is beyond our control. They could easily send an infected person (in fact they have) to a connecting flight serviced by an airliner we can lean on. That airliner then prohibits them from flying...resulting in a long term exposure to Ebola in the Paris International Airport. That's substantially worse of a situation as now you have people who would otherwise be safe now exposed to a long term source. This is why I keep coming back to saying if we were honest, we'd block all international flights. Blocking them just from getting on flights to America because they're from West Africa doesn't solve the problem, it only boosts exposure in areas we trap them in and now we have to start worrying about basically every European, large parts of Asia and the Middle East. Rather than just a small regional part of Africa, we now have serious exposure problems globally and it's because of our no fly policy. I don't see how this is actually better than what we have now which is at most transient exposure to small numbers of people. A short term exposure in a hub is way better than a long term exposure in a hub.

    this is not a good reason to let potentially sick people into the country on commercial flights. every time one of them comes in, we spend tens of thousands of dollars tracking down everyone that they may have come in contact with.
    True, but imagine the costs when we now have to take care of infected Thais, French, and Saudis who are flying through hubs and get exposed. The sheer costs of exposing millions of people to infected people stuck in hubs is going to make what we pay now look like change in the sofa.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Jesus. You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

    Hubs are vastly important because we cannot control the flights between them. You are again operating from asinine ignorant positions. No, US carriers do not operate any material amount of flights from West Africa to ME/Asian/European hubs. Therefore we cannot force them stop flying. Therefore, we cannot stop the spread of West Africans from West Africa via plane to regional hubs that serve millions of people. Therefore hubs are exceptionally important. You again do not understand and it's getting absurdly annoying how you keep pretending you have clue about this topic.

    You claim that the number of sick and exposed is important at the same time saying hubs don't matter, which 100% proves you are completely ignorant. If you actually understood this topic (which you do not), you'd realize that the method of transit relies on hubs and as long as these hubs are being served by carriers flying people from West Africa everyone who travels through that hub is potentially exposed. That's why hubs matter. Again, you asinine argument is reliant upon the asinine belief that West Africans are flying to America directly.

    Say someone does this, flies from West Africa to Bangkok on a one way flight. They've also booked another flight to LA. They get stopped from boarding the LA flight. Now they are stuck in the Bangkok hub which is the the regional hub. Now you've just put a potential long term infected person in an area where huge numbers of people travel daily. Rather than just expose a relative few to transient exposure, you've now put a long term exposure problem in one of the world's busiest airports. Good job, you've now made the problem worse.

    This is complicated and you do not understand any of it. It's obvious you don't understand the first thing about global air travel.
    Hubs () in other nations are beyond our control. We can only impact who comes here, not what they do elsewhere. And if people from outbreak nations want to come here, we get to determine what hoops they have to jump through.

    It is reasonable during an outbreak of a viral hemorrhagic disease outbreak to be even more critical of who enters.

    We are done here.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But the quarantine itself is unenforceable for reasons I've stated. That's the whole lynchpin. Furthermore, how are you suppose to enforce penalties on carriers that do not service American cities? An African airliner flying to Paris and has zero US operations is beyond our control. They could easily send an infected person (in fact they have) to a connecting flight serviced by an airliner we can lean on. That airliner then prohibits them from flying...resulting in a long term exposure to Ebola in the Paris International Airport. That's substantially worse of a situation as now you have people who would otherwise be safe now exposed to a long term source. This is why I keep coming back to saying if we were honest, we'd block all international flights. Blocking them just from getting on flights to America because they're from West Africa doesn't solve the problem, it only boosts exposure in areas we trap them in and now we have to start worrying about basically every European, large parts of Asia and the Middle East. Rather than just a small regional part of Africa, we now have serious exposure problems globally and it's because of our no fly policy. I don't see how this is actually better than what we have now which is at most transient exposure to small numbers of people. A short term exposure in a hub is way better than a long term exposure in a hub.
    i've already explained how this would work. refer to my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    True, but imagine the costs when we now have to take care of infected Thais, French, and Saudis who are flying through hubs and get exposed. The sheer costs of exposing millions of people to infected people stuck in hubs is going to make what we pay now look like change in the sofa.
    imagine the cost of doing nothing, and then quarantining everyone who came in contact with a sick commercial passenger from West Africa.

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    Re: Africa stems ebola via border closings, luck

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Hubs () in other nations are beyond our control.
    Uh Duh. Only now you are getting it? At least you are finally understanding that the problem isn't direct flights, which don't actually exist despite your reliance on that argument for many posts.

    The fact that the hubs are beyond our control is why it won't work. I've been saying that for a while now.

    We can only impact who comes here, not what they do elsewhere. And if people from outbreak nations want to come here, we get to determine what hoops they have to jump through.

    It is reasonable during an outbreak of a viral hemorrhagic disease outbreak to be even more critical of who enters.

    We are done here.
    We were done here a long time ago simply because you refused to learn anything about this topic.

    You still don't get how your proposal turns formerly safe European/Asian/Middle Eastern travelers into serious Ebola risks. Your whole plan actually increases the exposure of people flying into the US rather than decreases it. It is reasonable to extend more scrutiny, but the methods you propose only make the problem worse.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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