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Thread: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of Ebo

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    We already know that, if you wear the proper Ebola protective gear in an American hospital caring for an Ebola patient who was flown in and was already in protective isolation, hundreds of heathcare workers already having done so, the chances evidenced so far that you're in danger of catching the disease is zero.
    It's really bizarre how you measure risk. Two healthcare workers in America did get sick, but the risk of healthcare workers getting Ebola is zero. Not one person in America or in the rest of the developed world has gotten Ebola from a returning worker, but we need to quarantine all of them for 42 days because the risk of them infecting the public is significant?

    Two reasons: 1) West Africa simply does not have even close to the safe facilities for healthcare workers we have in our specialization hospitals like Emory, and 2) there's hardly any proper Ebola protective gear available now in West Africa for volunteers to keep them safe like the doctors and nurses at Emory have, which is why Dr. Spencer of Harlem came down with Ebola after he returned here from West Africa and was roaming around free in the populace.
    You really need to cite some of the data. According to Doctors without Borders, they've sent 700 doctors to the region since the outbreak began. Roughly 250 are there now. A total of THREE have gotten Ebola, one of them being treated now in NYC. 3 of 700. So if they have 'hardly any good protective gear' and are treating patients directly, and only 3 of 700 got sick, then the risk of transmission must be VERY low..... These brave providers are treating the very sick and dying and not getting Ebola, but you're worried that some person in the earliest stages of the disease is a risk to bystanders who just pass him on the street. There's a big disconnect there somewhere....

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    I think Obama is a lousy POTUS, but I give him credit for this.

    IMO, Ebola in America has been blown MILES out of proportion...and this is a good step towards helping tone down the paranoia (though announcing an 'Ebola Czar' did not help, imo).

    Thousands of Americans die every year from the flu and almost no one bats an eye. Yet a few people might have the Ebola virus and almost everyone seems to panic.

    The Ebola virus is NOT contagious unless the carrier has symptoms. As long as proper precautions and vigilance is maintained (something not done in West Africa) and barring something unforeseen, I don't think more then a handful of Americans - in America - will die from this virus.

    But having said that, I think the President exhibited some bravery and leadership if he did indeed hug these health care workers.
    Hopefully, this will at least begin to die down the panic and paranoia that has surrounded this disease in America (as opposed to in West Africa).

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    A 'hugging and kissing" standard is ridiculous, and it's hard to believe you're sticking with that. Second, the article was clear:
    Since your comment here is an obvious exaggeration devoid of the relevant facts that Obama hugged and kissed a recovered Ebola patient, the safest person in the world from transmitting Ebola with all those antibodies in them, and that Obama said, "see, you've nothing to fear about those infected running around not yet showing symptoms so don't panic about them", but he won't hug and kiss one of those people incubating the disease, is simply and obviously hypocrisy.

    That you continue to pretend that you don't get that is tantamount to your capitulation on the point, and obviously so.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Could be CNN is lying or repeating lies or half truths by the WH, but what CNN reported is very clear. Tweets say the same thing.
    Yes, indeed, the word "contact" is what is being challenged with respect to degree (contact can be having simply met in a meeting room, no touching having occurred) and, yes, the media most certainly does get their facts wrong. Tweets too are subject to embellishment.

    The video does not show him hugging and kissing anyone he or someone else there designates as being in their incubation period.

    The news article does not say he hugged and kissed anyone specifically who was in their incubation period.

    My point of Obama's hypocrisy stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Either he's not smart, or trusts the best experts in the world on Ebola and the risks of it spreading from people without symptoms, which is zero.
    Again, your polemic construct here strays from the truth of the matter.

    He's pandering to Wall Street, nothing more.

    Since he clearly did not hug and kiss anyone who's in their incubation period, like he did with the woman who had been cured of Ebola, and that is the only issue here, he's behaved hypocritically with respect to his message I referenced.

    And, of course, your second clause is false.

    During the 24-hour period prior to a person experiencing definite symptoms, there can be sufficient viral load in saliva to make them contagious.

    Quarantine of high-risk people with respect to epidemic potential addresses all of the eight points of intelligent real concern that the great majority of Americans possess: http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1063925921.

    Your argumentation style is, when you know you've lost on point, to create strawman diversions of irrelevancy.

    It fails.
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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    I guess I can inject some reality in the above post and point out that the virus has been noted to remain in the bodily fluids of Ebola patients for weeks/months after recovery.


    So the premise that a survivor is the 'safest person in the world' is a bit...idiotic.

    That being said, you don't get Ebola from kissing unless the other person pretty much vomits in your mouth.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    If I got hugged by Oblala I would go in to quarantine and never leave.

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Since your comment here is an obvious exaggeration devoid of the relevant facts that Obama hugged and kissed a recovered Ebola patient, the safest person in the world from transmitting Ebola with all those antibodies in them, and that Obama said, "see, you've nothing to fear about those infected running around not yet showing symptoms so don't panic about them", but he won't hug and kiss one of those people incubating the disease, is simply and obviously hypocrisy.

    That you continue to pretend that you don't get that is tantamount to your capitulation on the point, and obviously so.
    I'm sorry, but the POTUS cannot be expected to "hug and kiss" someone to make the point that those within the 21 day period, but not showing symptoms, are not a danger to the public. He shook their hands, stood with them for 20 minutes on tape, met with them earlier. I assume by "kiss" you require that there is tongue action - spit swapping? Otherwise, how does a peck on the cheek of a male doctor ( - do we really want to see our POTUS french kissing a man on tape???) put him at more risk than a handshake, and spending significant time sharing the same air?

    Yes, indeed, the word "contact" is what is being challenged with respect to degree (contact can be having simply met in a meeting room, no touching having occurred) and, yes, the media most certainly does get their facts wrong. Tweets too are subject to embellishment.

    The video does not show him hugging and kissing anyone he or someone else there designates as being in their incubation period.
    I'm basing this on reports by CNN. You have no better information - you're just rejecting the story because it is directly contrary to what you predicted.

    He's pandering to Wall Street, nothing more.
    Where did that come from? Any basis for that assertion backed by nothing?

    Since he clearly did not hug and kiss anyone who's in their incubation period, like he did with the woman who had been cured of Ebola, and that is the only issue here, he's behaved hypocritically with respect to his message I referenced.
    You said "close physical contact" which you define, bizarrely as 'hugging and kissing' but which certainly includes meetings and handshakes, which is FAR more "physical contact" than the Dr. had with ANY strangers in NYC which is in your view such a grave risk.

    And, of course, your second clause is false.

    During the 24-hour period prior to a person experiencing definite symptoms, there can be sufficient viral load in saliva to make them contagious.

    Quarantine of high-risk people with respect to epidemic potential addresses all of the eight points of intelligent real concern that the great majority of Americans possess: http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1063925921.
    I'm not sure how you linking to you demonstrates much. And if there is anything else in your previous post you'd like to specifically mention, please quote it. You made a couple dozen points in that post. Bottom line is Ebola is spread through contact with a sick person's bodily fluids, and that risk increases exponentially as the disease progresses, from very, very low to very high at the end stage. As long as the POTUS avoided blood and feces during his meetings with the providers, his risk of assassination by a gun man FAR exceeds his risk of getting Ebola from non-symptomatic workers.

    Your argumentation style is, when you know you've lost on point, to create strawman diversions of irrelevancy.

    It fails.
    It's not very persuasive for yourself to declare yourself winner of the the debate...

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's really bizarre how you measure risk. Two healthcare workers in America did get sick, but the risk of healthcare workers getting Ebola is zero.
    Here you purposely attempt to mislead the reader.

    You state that, yes, "two nurses who treated Duncan before they donned Ebola protective gear and thus contracted Ebola, but you, Ontologuy, said the risk of healthcare workers getting Ebola is zero, so 'it's really bizarre how you measure risk'".



    You left off the fact that what I actually said was that when healthcare workers wear Ebola protective gear and treat a patient in appropriate isolation that history in America shows a zero percent risk of getting the disease.

    And, of course, you don't admit to being wrong on the fact that you stated "Obama hugged and kissed two nurses who had treated an Ebola patient" but you neglected to present that said treatment was not in West Africa, but at Emory in the U.S. and that said treatment had them wearing Ebola protective gear from the onset.

    Thus you fail to admit that you knew these two nurses were essentially zero risk, and thus Obama was perfectly safe in this dog-and-pony show of hugging and kissing them.

    And, of course, you fail to admit that you get it, that Obama is telling us not to fear the high-risk people by his hugging and kissing of no-risk people.



    Please stop posting disingenuously.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Not one person in America or in the rest of the developed world has gotten Ebola from a returning worker, but we need to quarantine all of them for 42 days because the risk of them infecting the public is significant?
    So far, only Dr. Spencer we know of ran around loose in a big city like New York's Harlem, and those whom he had contact with, some are in quarantine and some are being observed and monitored.

    It will take 42 days from the time of his 24-hours prior to experiencing definite symptoms before we know if your statement here is true.

    The great majority of the American people are concerned about such high-risk people running loose in the populace.

    It only takes one to start an epidemic.

    Yes, we most certainly do need to quarantine all high-risk returning workers.

    Absolutely.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You really need to cite some of the data. According to Doctors without Borders, they've sent 700 doctors to the region since the outbreak began. Roughly 250 are there now. A total of THREE have gotten Ebola, one of them being treated now in NYC. 3 of 700. So if they have 'hardly any good protective gear' and are treating patients directly, and only 3 of 700 got sick, then the risk of transmission must be VERY low..... These brave providers are treating the very sick and dying and not getting Ebola, but you're worried that some person in the earliest stages of the disease is a risk to bystanders who just pass him on the street. There's a big disconnect there somewhere....
    Again, it is you who purposely disconnects from the relevant and accurate statement of the issues at hand.

    Even if the numbers you state are true, you miss the point that 3 out of 700 is 3 too many, as only one is required to start an epidemic here in America. That alone makes them high-risk. High-risk is not about the past percentages. High-risk is about the behavior they engage in while they're there -- they engaged in high-risk behavior if they intimately cared for Ebola patients and did not correctly wear appropriate Ebola protective gear.

    It doesn't matter how "brave" these providers are, what matters is that they are high-risk.

    Also, you've mentioned only the doctors, and doctors most often keep a safe distance, and doctors, due to their status, get the better equipment.

    What about the nurses? The nurses are the ones who empty bedpans and clean up vomit, and bandage blood sores.

    Do they have adequate protection?

    What are the statistics for the nurses?

    So far, in America, anyone who's had adequate Ebola protective gear from the onset of treating a patient with Ebola has been completely free of the virus. That's no-risk, here in America. Low-risk at worst.

    That's also hundreds of healthcare workers, in appropriate shifts working appropriate hours.

    Yet 3 doctors, doctors, mind you, have come down with Ebola (if DWB is to be believed it's that small).

    Obviously they didn't have adequate protective gear or they weren't using it or using it correctly ..

    .. Or in the uncontrolled conditions of West Africa some other high-risk factors are at work.

    The great majority of Americans are indeed concerned that someone who is showing definite symptoms should not be roaming freely in the populace, and obviously so.

    That you continue to mock this intelligent real concern is the disconnect here.

    The reality of DWB healthcare worker infection is likely much higher than Doctors Without Borders is reporting, however.

    Indeed, according to this article -- WHO | Unprecedented number of medical staff infected with Ebola --
    To date, more than 240 health care workers have developed the disease in Guinea, Liberia, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone, and more than 120 have died.
    And this was just as of August 25th, 2014!

    Many more have contracted Ebola since then, some of whom have died since then.

    The super-high-risk of nurses means a lot of these people who contracted Ebola were nurses, like Nurse Hickox, the histrionic megalomaniac in Maine who is ODD in defiance of her quarantine.

    And why have so many healthcare workers contracted Ebola?:
    Several factors help explain the high proportion of infected medical staff. These factors include shortages of personal protective equipment or its improper use, far too few medical staff for such a large outbreak, and the compassion that causes medical staff to work in isolation wards far beyond the number of hours recommended as safe.
    Yep, the number one answer: shortages of personal protective equipment.

    Clearly the Doctors Without Borders "report" you cite is suspect, either in your inaccurate reference, or the DWB veracity.

    And if nurse Hickox is any indication, DWB personnel simply cannot be trusted to grasp or accurately report the truth.

    My points stand.

    We must be extra careful safe about high-risk personnel, meaning those who have intimate contact with Ebola sufferers in the conditions existing in West Africa.

    Quarantines for these people when they return are most certainly intelligently mandated.
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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm sorry, but the POTUS cannot be expected to "hug and kiss" someone to make the point that those within the 21 day period, but not showing symptoms, are not a danger to the public. He shook their hands, stood with them for 20 minutes on tape, met with them earlier. I assume by "kiss" you require that there is tongue action - spit swapping? Otherwise, how does a peck on the cheek of a male doctor ( - do we really want to see our POTUS french kissing a man on tape???) put him at more risk than a handshake, and spending significant time sharing the same air? I'm basing this on reports by CNN. You have no better information - you're just rejecting the story because it is directly contrary to what you predicted. Where did that come from? Any basis for that assertion backed by nothing? You said "close physical contact" which you define, bizarrely as 'hugging and kissing' but which certainly includes meetings and handshakes, which is FAR more "physical contact" than the Dr. had with ANY strangers in NYC which is in your view such a grave risk. I'm not sure how you linking to you demonstrates much. And if there is anything else in your previous post you'd like to specifically mention, please quote it. You made a couple dozen points in that post. Bottom line is Ebola is spread through contact with a sick person's bodily fluids, and that risk increases exponentially as the disease progresses, from very, very low to very high at the end stage. As long as the POTUS avoided blood and feces during his meetings with the providers, his risk of assassination by a gun man FAR exceeds his risk of getting Ebola from non-symptomatic workers. It's not very persuasive for yourself to declare yourself winner of the the debate...
    Here you simply repeat the same absurd irrelevancies and disconnects from the relevant facts and other arguments that I've already refuted.

    I'm not going to waste my time any further by simply repeating those accurate refutations only to have you, once again, obtusely pretend you don't get it.

    With respect to the Wall Street concern, Obama voiced that concern over a month ago. You have a very short-term memory, it appears. When logic is applied to the situation, the conclusion is that not spooking Wall Street is his primary concern here.

    That's not a bad concern, not at all.

    But, his "philosophy" on that comes at the expense of unacceptably increasing the risk of starting an epidemic here in America.

    Thus it's simply unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens.
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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    You left off the fact that what I actually said was that when healthcare workers wear Ebola protective gear and treat a patient in appropriate isolation that history in America shows a zero percent risk of getting the disease.
    And history in America also shows a zero risk of getting the disease from someone out in public but not symptomatic. And if we could 'rank' our zero risks, the risk to the public is FAR less than to healthcare workers who but for the barrier equipment are in likely near constant contact, or risk of contact, with blood, feces and/or vomit of patients when they are most contagious. At that point, their skin is contagious.

    And, of course, you don't admit to being wrong on the fact that you stated "Obama hugged and kissed two nurses who had treated an Ebola patient" but you neglected to present that said treatment was not in West Africa, but at Emory in the U.S. and that said treatment had them wearing Ebola protective gear from the onset.
    I believe you're mistaking me for someone else. Don't remember making that point, because I didn't know it had happened.

    And, of course, you fail to admit that you get it, that Obama is telling us not to fear the high-risk people by his hugging and kissing of no-risk people.
    I agree they are no risk but you don't. Several of those standing behind Obama should be in mandatory 42 day quarantine per your recommendations.

    So far, only Dr. Spencer we know of ran around loose in a big city like New York's Harlem, and those whom he had contact with, some are in quarantine and some are being observed and monitored.

    It will take 42 days from the time of his 24-hours prior to experiencing definite symptoms before we know if your statement here is true.
    Yes, two are in quarantine, because NY and NJ decided they must be, but that doesn't speak to their risk, just what politicians reacting to a panicked public have done in reaction to that panic.

    It only takes one to start an epidemic.
    Well, yes, that's technically true, but the rate of infection in Africa, with terrible conditions of all kinds, from treatment to burial, poverty, etc. is about 1-1.2 to 1-2. So it only takes one, but the risk of an epidemic in the U.S. is zero for all practical purposes.

    Also, you've mentioned only the doctors, and doctors most often keep a safe distance, and doctors, due to their status, get the better equipment.

    What about the nurses? The nurses are the ones who empty bedpans and clean up vomit, and bandage blood sores.
    Do they have adequate protection?

    What are the statistics for the nurses?
    I only know of two working in Africa who were infected. Do you have different information?

    So far, in America, anyone who's had adequate Ebola protective gear from the onset of treating a patient with Ebola has been completely free of the virus. That's no-risk, here in America. Low-risk at worst.

    That's also hundreds of healthcare workers, in appropriate shifts working appropriate hours.

    Yet 3 doctors, doctors, mind you, have come down with Ebola (if DWB is to be believed it's that small).
    You don't have to believe them. Search all you want for other U.S. or Europe based individuals who have gotten Ebola and recovered or died. It's big news - stories aren't hard to find.

    The reality of DWB healthcare worker infection is likely much higher than Doctors Without Borders is reporting, however.

    Indeed, according to this article -- WHO | Unprecedented number of medical staff infected with Ebola --

    And this was just as of August 25th, 2014!
    And it talked about native healthcare workers, not DWB employees. But what struck me was this:

    The heavy toll on health care workers in this outbreak has a number of consequences that further impede control efforts.

    It depletes one of the most vital assets during the control of any outbreak. WHO estimates that, in the three hardest-hit countries, only one to two doctors are available to treat 100,000 people, and these doctors are heavily concentrated in urban areas.

    It can lead to the closing of health facilities, especially when staff refuse to come to work, fearing for their lives. When hospitals close, other common and urgent medical needs, such as safe childbirth and treatment for malaria, are neglected.
    Which is exactly why foreign based volunteers are so badly in need, and sticking them in quarantine for 42 days is a huge barrier to getting them to commit to Africa, and those that do, wasting 42 days in quarantine a massive waste of their efforts that could have gone towards assisting the sick in Africa. You dismiss these concerns with a wave of your hand.... Sort of the whole point of this discussion.

    The super-high-risk of nurses means a lot of these people who contracted Ebola were nurses, like Nurse Hickox, the histrionic megalomaniac in Maine who is ODD in defiance of her quarantine.
    You need to present evidence for assertions like that.

    Clearly the Doctors Without Borders "report" you cite is suspect, either in your inaccurate reference, or the DWB veracity.
    Again - do your own research. The western press is covering Ebola pretty thoroughly, especially any cases involving providers from the U.S. or Europe. I'm not sure on what basis you dismiss reports with nothing but your baseless suspicions to contradict them.

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    Re: Obama: ‘I Felt Perfectly Safe’ Hugging, Kissing Hospital Workers Who Took Care Of

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And history in America also shows a zero risk of getting the disease from someone out in public but not symptomatic. And if we could 'rank' our zero risks, the risk to the public is FAR less than to healthcare workers who but for the barrier equipment are in likely near constant contact, or risk of contact, with blood, feces and/or vomit of patients when they are most contagious. At that point, their skin is contagious. I believe you're mistaking me for someone else. Don't remember making that point, because I didn't know it had happened. I agree they are no risk but you don't. Several of those standing behind Obama should be in mandatory 42 day quarantine per your recommendations. Yes, two are in quarantine, because NY and NJ decided they must be, but that doesn't speak to their risk, just what politicians reacting to a panicked public have done in reaction to that panic. Well, yes, that's technically true, but the rate of infection in Africa, with terrible conditions of all kinds, from treatment to burial, poverty, etc. is about 1-1.2 to 1-2. So it only takes one, but the risk of an epidemic in the U.S. is zero for all practical purposes. I only know of two working in Africa who were infected. Do you have different information? You don't have to believe them. Search all you want for other U.S. or Europe based individuals who have gotten Ebola and recovered or died. It's big news - stories aren't hard to find. And it talked about native healthcare workers, not DWB employees. But what struck me was this: Which is exactly why foreign based volunteers are so badly in need, and sticking them in quarantine for 42 days is a huge barrier to getting them to commit to Africa, and those that do, wasting 42 days in quarantine a massive waste of their efforts that could have gone towards assisting the sick in Africa. You dismiss these concerns with a wave of your hand.... Sort of the whole point of this discussion. You need to present evidence for assertions like that. Again - do your own research. The western press is covering Ebola pretty thoroughly, especially any cases involving providers from the U.S. or Europe. I'm not sure on what basis you dismiss reports with nothing but your baseless suspicions to contradict them.


    You continue to ignore when I've made valid points that refute your claims.

    You continue to behave obtusely that you don't grasp the points I've made.

    You continue to divert with irrelevancies and meaningless digressions.

    You continue to make false allusions about me.



    With respect to the OP, I've accurately made my correct point about Obama's hypocrisy.

    I've also accurately made my correct point that many healthcare workers have died in West Africa due to substandard protection, that there is no oversight in West Africa yet that functions to keep Americans as safe as at Emory hospital in America, and that nurse Hickox and others like her and Dr. Spencer (who indeed contracted Ebola then roamed freely around Harlem!) are high-risk because of this.

    All high-risk people need to be quarantined and for the valid reasons I've stated.

    It's really not subject to rational conjecture.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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