• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons, internal communications

Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Cryptic said:
I do respect the reseach you have done on this. I also think you have the wrong approach to the burdens of proof.

At the end of the day:

- the government took punitive action against a group opposed to their policy (Hey, these signatures are not valid, so your petition fails)
- The action was evidently based on vague accusations from a private group also opposed to the churches ("We purportedly heard a sermon say "X", but we are not sure which one it was")

- The goverrnment's actions then get challenged.
-Rather than say "Our actions were justified because we have specific information, show us A, h, and p", the government says: "Ok, we"ll fish around a-z and we"ll see if we can find anything that justifies our actions... ."

Basically, when the government takes a punitive action against an oppostion group- even a mild action, they need to do so based on specific information. Not, well take the action, then scramble to justify it by shaking them down.
Click to expand...

Gathering more information to support your position is what is done in these cases. Neither side is supposed to just be limited to what they start with. They can get more information, including through subpoenas.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

roguenuke said:
Gathering more information to support your position is what is done in these cases. Neither side is supposed to just be limited to what they start with. They can get more information, including through subpoenas.
Click to expand...

I can accept that- but the subpeonas need to be for for specific material. Once again, if one cant make specific requests, then it is a good indication that the accusation is baseless. My guess is that the judge tosses the subpeonas into the garbage can.

The govt should not be able to take punitive action against opposition groups based on vague "might have" accusations made by another partisan group.

Try replacing "City of Houston" and conservative groups with "Greg Abbot" and "Planned Parenthood":

- I heard Planned Parenthood leadership conspire to violate a rule regarding non profits.
- No, I am not certain when and where I heard it.
- No, I dont like Planned Parenthood- at all.
- Hey Greg, take punitive action!
_Greg Abbott: Ok, sounds good. I can always shake them down in the hopes to justify it....
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

roguenuke said:
No it isn't. It is certain groups agreeing to not conduct certain activities and ordinance/rules that define the proper way to get valid signatures to overturn or enact a law.
Click to expand...

Subpoenaing sermons and private correspondance is an attack on the 1st Amendment and stongarm tactics, that are being used to intimidate American citizens.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

roguenuke said:
Gathering more information to support your position is what is done in these cases. Neither side is supposed to just be limited to what they start with. They can get more information, including through subpoenas.
Click to expand...

The subpoenas are being used to silence dissent, not gather information. The city has zero authority to regulate free speech.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

haymarket said:
That seems to be the key question. Any answers?
Click to expand...

No, not yet. But subpoenaing sermons seems like a stretch.

And I think what seems to be an overreach may backfire on Annise Parker. It's certainly divisive, and I hate that this is going on because the ill will may last for a very long time, and this would be a shame. I'll be curious to learn how ordinary Houstonians respond.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Cryptic said:
I truly think that this is the long term goal. It wont come directly. Rather, various pretenses will be used:

-Oppostion to gay marriage is "hate speech" and those who use hate speech cannot be tax exempt.
-Advocating that bathrooms be restricted to a particular sex constitutes a "conspiracy to violate civil rights" etc.

And of course, vague accusations that a pastor "might" have broken the law and therefore, must turn over speech records (both written and verbal) on a wide variety of topics.
Click to expand...

This has been the plan from day one, and any fool who cannot see this is either A) ignorant or B) lying.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Cryptic said:
Now, lets change things up:

Greg Abbot, Texas AG: Hey Planned Parenthood- you are being sued because you might have conspired to obstruct access to places of worship.
Planned Patenthood: Really, have we done something like that before?
Abbot: No, but you still might have done it this time. Here is a subpeona for all written material and speeches on: Abortion, the Catholic Church, pro life clinics, oh and of course, Greg Abbott and Governor Rick Perry.
PP: We engage in alot of constitutionaly protected activities- those include opposing your policies. Furthermore, we have an expectation of privacy. Those topics are broad. Do you have any specific material to ask for that would support the allegation?
Abbott: No, not really. But.... you still might have done something wrong. By the way, your humanist buddies at the "Atheist Alliance" are going to get subpeaned as well- there might have been a conspiracy between you and them.
Click to expand...

This is the best annology to why I think the subpeanas are very over reaching and shouldnt be allowed.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Gringo allstar said:
This has been the plan from day one, and any fool who cannot see this is either A) ignorant or B) lying.
Click to expand...

If it is been the plan from day one, I have yet to meet the secret group doing all of this planning. I do see a group that has been treated badly who now has some power and is over using this power.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

So let me get this straight.


-The mayor put forward the Equal Rights Ordinance which provides protection against discrimination for gay, lesbian and transgender people in areas such as employment, accommodation etc.

-Some church groups decided to get a petition together to stop it because they don't like gay and lesbian people having the same rights as they do and want to discriminate against them freely.

-The city tosses the petition because of invalid signatures because churches were used to gather petition signatures and 5 pastors were using their pulpits for political purposes despite their tax-exempt status.

-The church groups sue the city for tossing the petition.

-The City attorneys subpoena the sermons/communications of the 5 pastors which would show they used their churches/pulpits for political purposes which make the sermons etc fair game, and those signatures invalid.

-Fundamentalists scream 'We're being discriminated against and persecuted by the evil gay agenda! The end is nigh!"



Is that about right?
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

"City Secretary Anna Russell initially counted enough signatures to send the issue to the ballot, with about 600 more than the required 17,269 signatures. Before Russell had checked all the signatures, the city attorney's office checked the petition pages to make sure those who gathered the signatures met city charter requirements -- that they were registered Houston voters and signed each page, for instance.
That process disqualified more than half the group's 5,199 pages, leaving opponents roughly 2,000 signatures short of getting a referendum on the November ballot."

ERO foes ask court to force city to certify repeal petitions - Houston Chronicle
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

"Some signatures were acquired at churches which make the sermons fair game, according to City Attorney Dave Feldman.

"If they choose to do this inside the church, choose to do this from the pulpit, then they open the door to the questions being asked," Feldman said."

Pastors' sermons subpoenaed amid Houston Equal Rights Ordinance fight | abc13.com
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Amandi said:
If it is been the plan from day one, I have yet to meet the secret group doing all of this planning. I do see a group that has been treated badly who now has some power and is over using this power.
Click to expand...

You think that Houston has mistreated gay people?!
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Ceist said:
"Some signatures were acquired at churches which make the sermons fair game, according to City Attorney Dave Feldman.

"If they choose to do this inside the church, choose to do this from the pulpit, then they open the door to the questions being asked," Feldman said."

Pastors' sermons subpoenaed amid Houston Equal Rights Ordinance fight | abc13.com
Click to expand...

IOW, "We're going to misuse the power given to us by the people to suppress free speech".
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Cryptic said:
I can accept that- but the subpeonas need to be for for specific material. Once again, if one cant make specific requests, then it is a good indication that the accusation is baseless. My guess is that the judge tosses the subpeonas into the garbage can.

The govt should not be able to take punitive action against opposition groups based on vague "might have" accusations made by another partisan group.

Try replacing "City of Houston" and conservative groups with "Greg Abbot" and "Planned Parenthood":

- I heard Planned Parenthood leadership conspire to violate a rule regarding non profits.
- No, I am not certain when and where I heard it.
- No, I dont like Planned Parenthood- at all.
- Hey Greg, take punitive action!
_Greg Abbott: Ok, sounds good. I can always shake them down in the hopes to justify it....
Click to expand...

And I have said that I think these were too broad, but that is what generally happens in these cases. Almost certainly what will happen is they will have the subpoena denied, then it will get narrowed, to include likely only those that include stuff about the petition and/or the ordinance, possibly some other things, and only the public sermons. And that will pass. They can ask for general information and even general time ranges.

Oh, and the fact that the city didn't sue the group. The group started the court proceedings. So your analogy doesn't fit at all. Plus, the only "punitive action" is the invalidation of the signatures on the petition.
 
Last edited:
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

apdst said:
IOW, "We're going to misuse the power given to us by the people to suppress free speech".
Click to expand...

Not when the city has the right to know how the signatures were gathered, including while done in churches.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

apdst said:
The subpoenas are being used to silence dissent, not gather information. The city has zero authority to regulate free speech.
Click to expand...

Not even close. They are gathering information. Obviously it would be stupid to use such information to try to "silence dissent", since that isn't even possibly with our Constitution.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

apdst said:
IOW, "We're going to misuse the power given to us by the people to suppress free speech".
Click to expand...

Only if you want to make hysterical **** up and not bother to read about what actually happened.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

roguenuke said:
Not even close. They are gathering information. Obviously it would be stupid to use such information to try to "silence dissent", since that isn't even possibly with our Constitution.
Click to expand...

It's called, "intimidation", and it's being used to silence dissent.
 
The LYING bully Anise Parker is now trying to backtrack saying it was the Pastors fault who apparently misunderstood.

BUT, yesterday she tweeted that if the 5 pastors used their pulpits for Political gain then they're fair game.

What a dishonest hack.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

Ceist said:
Only if you want to make hysterical **** up and not bother to read about what actually happened.
Click to expand...

These preachers dared question the mayor. That's what happened.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

apdst said:
It's called, "intimidation", and it's being used to silence dissent.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't. At the most it is being used to gather information to invalidate signatures. Whether the signatures were actually "ill gotten" or not remains to be seen and is for the courts to decide, but it gathering the information has nothing to do with "silencing dissent".
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

apdst said:
It's called, "intimidation", and it's being used to silence dissent.
Click to expand...

apdst said:
These preachers dared question the mayor. That's what happened.
Click to expand...
And you are still making up hysterical shyte.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

roguenuke said:
Not even close. They are gathering information. Obviously it would be stupid to use such information to try to "silence dissent", since that isn't even possibly with our Constitution.
Click to expand...

Our Constitution has been flipped upside down and gutted - it is subjectively interpreted in the most tortured and inane ways, and then arbitrarily enforced, or not enforced by ideologues who care nothing about citizens rights or the rule of law.

The Patriot Act should have been a wake up call, but most Amerikans cheered for it. The government can invade your privacy and seize your property without warrant, they can arrest you without cause, and they can hold you indefinitely without charge. They can sanction "politically incorrect" thought, action, or speech simply b/c they find it unacceptable.

Amerika is not a free nation - not in the least. Our Constitution no longer protects us FROM government.

As for this particular instance, christianity has been in the crosshairs of the radical left, and the monied interests that fund and steer them for decades - for very logical reasons; reasons that have nothing to do with the rights of gays, or miniorities, but rather have everything to do with breaking down America's culture, i.e. Gramscian strategy - infiltrate the institutions and destroy the society from within.

Attacking all things "Christian" is one of the most important battlefronts. Unfortunately, the war has long since been lost - as should be obvious. Our culture no longer has any identity, i.e. the glue that held us together as a society is gone - making us easy prey authoritarian predators. Divide and conquer.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

My hope is the pastors will not comply with the subpoena's and a constitution suit ensues. The pastors I hope will go to jail rather than comply. Sometimes government needs to be called on the mat and who better than the church to push back and say no. If Houston attorney's want information on the sermons, I'm sure they would be welcomed to come Sunday mornings and listen.
 
Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

The Mayor won, the issue will not be on the ballot this Nov.
This whole thing was a delaying tactic, and it worked.
I suspect the call for discovery, and subpoenas was allthat was needed to get past the deadline.
She have now backed off the request, because A: She already won, and B: it likely would not stand up in court.
Houston Mayor Backs Off From Subpoenas to Pastors
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom