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Thread: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons, internal communications

  1. #81
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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I truly think that this is the long term goal. It wont come directly. Rather, various pretenses will be used:

    -Oppostion to gay marriage is "hate speech" and those who use hate speech cannot be tax exempt.
    -Advocating that bathrooms be restricted to a particular sex constitutes a "conspiracy to violate civil rights" etc.

    And of course, vague accusations that a pastor "might" have broken the law and therefore, must turn over speech records (both written and verbal) on a wide variety of topics.
    This has been the plan from day one, and any fool who cannot see this is either A) ignorant or B) lying.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Now, lets change things up:

    Greg Abbot, Texas AG: Hey Planned Parenthood- you are being sued because you might have conspired to obstruct access to places of worship.
    Planned Patenthood: Really, have we done something like that before?
    Abbot: No, but you still might have done it this time. Here is a subpeona for all written material and speeches on: Abortion, the Catholic Church, pro life clinics, oh and of course, Greg Abbott and Governor Rick Perry.
    PP: We engage in alot of constitutionaly protected activities- those include opposing your policies. Furthermore, we have an expectation of privacy. Those topics are broad. Do you have any specific material to ask for that would support the allegation?
    Abbott: No, not really. But.... you still might have done something wrong. By the way, your humanist buddies at the "Atheist Alliance" are going to get subpeaned as well- there might have been a conspiracy between you and them.
    This is the best annology to why I think the subpeanas are very over reaching and shouldnt be allowed.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo allstar View Post
    This has been the plan from day one, and any fool who cannot see this is either A) ignorant or B) lying.
    If it is been the plan from day one, I have yet to meet the secret group doing all of this planning. I do see a group that has been treated badly who now has some power and is over using this power.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    So let me get this straight.


    -The mayor put forward the Equal Rights Ordinance which provides protection against discrimination for gay, lesbian and transgender people in areas such as employment, accommodation etc.

    -Some church groups decided to get a petition together to stop it because they don't like gay and lesbian people having the same rights as they do and want to discriminate against them freely.

    -The city tosses the petition because of invalid signatures because churches were used to gather petition signatures and 5 pastors were using their pulpits for political purposes despite their tax-exempt status.

    -The church groups sue the city for tossing the petition.

    -The City attorneys subpoena the sermons/communications of the 5 pastors which would show they used their churches/pulpits for political purposes which make the sermons etc fair game, and those signatures invalid.

    -Fundamentalists scream 'We're being discriminated against and persecuted by the evil gay agenda! The end is nigh!"



    Is that about right?

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    "City Secretary Anna Russell initially counted enough signatures to send the issue to the ballot, with about 600 more than the required 17,269 signatures. Before Russell had checked all the signatures, the city attorney's office checked the petition pages to make sure those who gathered the signatures met city charter requirements -- that they were registered Houston voters and signed each page, for instance.
    That process disqualified more than half the group's 5,199 pages, leaving opponents roughly 2,000 signatures short of getting a referendum on the November ballot."

    ERO foes ask court to force city to certify repeal petitions - Houston Chronicle

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    "Some signatures were acquired at churches which make the sermons fair game, according to City Attorney Dave Feldman.

    "If they choose to do this inside the church, choose to do this from the pulpit, then they open the door to the questions being asked," Feldman said."

    Pastors' sermons subpoenaed amid Houston Equal Rights Ordinance fight | abc13.com

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    If it is been the plan from day one, I have yet to meet the secret group doing all of this planning. I do see a group that has been treated badly who now has some power and is over using this power.
    You think that Houston has mistreated gay people?!

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceist View Post
    "Some signatures were acquired at churches which make the sermons fair game, according to City Attorney Dave Feldman.

    "If they choose to do this inside the church, choose to do this from the pulpit, then they open the door to the questions being asked," Feldman said."

    Pastors' sermons subpoenaed amid Houston Equal Rights Ordinance fight | abc13.com
    IOW, "We're going to misuse the power given to us by the people to suppress free speech".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I can accept that- but the subpeonas need to be for for specific material. Once again, if one cant make specific requests, then it is a good indication that the accusation is baseless. My guess is that the judge tosses the subpeonas into the garbage can.

    The govt should not be able to take punitive action against opposition groups based on vague "might have" accusations made by another partisan group.

    Try replacing "City of Houston" and conservative groups with "Greg Abbot" and "Planned Parenthood":

    - I heard Planned Parenthood leadership conspire to violate a rule regarding non profits.
    - No, I am not certain when and where I heard it.
    - No, I dont like Planned Parenthood- at all.
    - Hey Greg, take punitive action!
    _Greg Abbott: Ok, sounds good. I can always shake them down in the hopes to justify it....
    And I have said that I think these were too broad, but that is what generally happens in these cases. Almost certainly what will happen is they will have the subpoena denied, then it will get narrowed, to include likely only those that include stuff about the petition and/or the ordinance, possibly some other things, and only the public sermons. And that will pass. They can ask for general information and even general time ranges.

    Oh, and the fact that the city didn't sue the group. The group started the court proceedings. So your analogy doesn't fit at all. Plus, the only "punitive action" is the invalidation of the signatures on the petition.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 10-16-14 at 08:59 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #90
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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IOW, "We're going to misuse the power given to us by the people to suppress free speech".
    Not when the city has the right to know how the signatures were gathered, including while done in churches.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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