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Thread: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons, internal communications

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    "No conservative judges or lawyers or legislators have ever existed, and that's why no court system in America applies the probable cause test to subpoenas!"

    Internet Conservatives, 2014
    My friend, the 4th Amendment has two clauses. One covers "unreasonable searches and seizures" and the other covers warrants. A subpoena is covered by the first clause and the "reasonableness" standard applies. As it says right in the link you provided (but apparently didn't read) a subpoena can be quashed on Constitutional grounds.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    My friend, the 4th Amendment has two clauses. One covers "unreasonable searches and seizures" and the other covers warrants. A subpoena is covered by the first clause and the "reasonableness" standard applies. As it says right in the link you provided (but apparently didn't read) a subpoena can be quashed on Constitutional grounds.
    Of course they can be. However, subpoenas for all sorts of communication are regularly issued in civil cases, and while sometimes the other party can fight a subpoena, they seldom win when they are fighting a subpoena for public communication. This is being made into much more than it is. There is a legal fight between the city and some churches over an ordinance and a petition to remove it. It is perfectly normal for both sides to subpoena communications as part of the discovery process. When the church subpoena's a local government for public transcripts in a civil matter are they violating the separation of church and state?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Of course they can be. However, subpoenas for all sorts of communication are regularly issued in civil cases, and while sometimes the other party can fight a subpoena, they seldom win when they are fighting a subpoena for public communication. This is being made into much more than it is. There is a legal fight between the city and some churches over an ordinance and a petition to remove it. It is perfectly normal for both sides to subpoena communications as part of the discovery process. When the church subpoena's a local government for public transcripts in a civil matter are they violating the separation of church and state?
    If the suit is with regard to an investigation as to whether signatures were collected illegally then a subpoena requesting "all sermons mentioning homosexuality" would be way, way too broad.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Why would the city want or need transcripts of sermons discussing homosexuality?
    If you read the OP, you would know there is a court case. Reading Is Fundamental.
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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    If the suit is with regard to an investigation as to whether signatures were collected illegally then a subpoena requesting "all sermons mentioning homosexuality" would be way, way too broad.
    It may well be way too broad. Opposing council regularly asks for way more that what probably pertains to a case. If that is what is going on here, then they will easily be able to get it thrown out. There is nothing at all abnormal about what is going on. This is how the discovery process works in the majority of cases. If those churches are being persecuted they should call up the local ACLU.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    My question is intended to find out how any words spoken in a church can be the basis of any discrimination case. Actions? Perhaps. Do you often ignore questions when responding to someone?
    It is not a discrimination case. Reading Is Fundamental.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    The purpose of the subpoenas is determine if both the pastors and the congregants were aware of the law when they gathered and submitted the signatures. We already know that at least one of these pastors provided training to his congregation. What the City Attorney can derive from that is that the congregants knowingly gathered invalid signatures and the pastors knowingly submitted a petition in which over half the signatures were invalid which could both be crimes. Anyway, I don't see how the pastors have any legal ground to stand on in this case. Their legal argument basically amounts to 'no take backsies' and the first thing the City Attorney is going to do is ask for dismissal since they know they don't have enough valid signatures to re-instate the petition.



    This isn't a discrimination case.
    Thanks, that is more information than I had gathered.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's called, "tyranny". Liberal tyranny, to be more precise.
    Actually it is called the law, something I happen to know that you don't.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    My friend, the 4th Amendment has two clauses. One covers "unreasonable searches and seizures" and the other covers warrants. A subpoena is covered by the first clause and the "reasonableness" standard applies. As it says right in the link you provided (but apparently didn't read) a subpoena can be quashed on Constitutional grounds.
    A subpoena duces tecum is niether a search nor a seizure. Why is it those who talk the most about the constitution tend to know the least?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #40
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    Re: Houston Mayor orders pastors to turn over sermons about gays, gender and... the m

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Thanks, that is more information than I had gathered.
    The funny thing about this is that this is the first time I have ever heard a pastor say he doesn't want people to know the content of his sermons.

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