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Thread: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    What's your point, beyond playing 'gotcha'?

    If Iran gets nuclear technology it's because we allowed it. Wrong? That's not any different than giving it to them, unless you're insistent that it's not literal enough?

    India had them and the Pakistani's were insisting they needed a deterrent, I'm sure some US President agreed to let it happen.
    Um. Pakistan developed them definitely without our permission. We aren't omnipotent.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    if you mean that you have to support long term occupation of Afghanistan and expanding foreverwar in order to laud this girl for her accomplishments, no, that is incorrect.
    Naturally. Malala is an amazing girl because she stood up for the rights of people whom we will abandon once again to the tender mercies of the Taliban because - meh - it's all a bit of a bore, and tiring really, and hearing about it on the news is so exausting.

    There is definitely a disconnect between celebrating freedom and education for girls and then abandoning millions of girls to a regime that will abuse them and keep them trapped.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Naturally. Malala is an amazing girl because she stood up for the rights of people whom we will abandon once again to the tender mercies of the Taliban because - meh - it's all a bit of a bore, and tiring really, and hearing about it on the news is so exausting.

    There is definitely a disconnect between celebrating freedom and education for girls and then abandoning millions of girls to a regime that will abuse them and keep them trapped.
    we can't make the Middle East into a liberal western democracy through any amount of external force. the reform has to come from within. Saudi Arabia and Iran need to step up and clean up their neighborhood.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    It's a pretty tiered operation.
    by which you mean..... ?

    But I mean by failed state we're talking like, Syria levels of failed state in which no one force could co-ordinate an effective response to an invading force.
    :raises eyebrow: Oh. You mean like Somalia, where none of our invading forces ever faced a co-ordinated or effective response? Hitting the sites in Pakistan would mean being Hours at Best from possible support once you hit the ground, if we even had the resources to support all those efforts.

    but I suppose someone holding the keys and would fire off a few at US.
    That I don't know. I would think that having a Pakistani IAD system managing to shoot down some Osprey's/Helo's or having an effective ground response pinning down / trapping / overruning a team are more likely scenario's. And the more likely target of a sudden-key-turn is probably India.

    Perhaps I should drink more coffee and stop talking nonsense.
    This is one of the reasons why we need to take proliferation so seriously. Current stability is not a guarantee of future results, especially in dictatorships or semi-dictatorships.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    we can't make the Middle East into a liberal western democracy through any amount of external force. the reform has to come from within.
    Local Support is directly proportional to the belief that it has a good chance of succeeding. More Iraqi's came out to vote than Americans did, relative to our populace, in their election, and despite the threat of car bombs, which Americans do not face. They did that because they had US military on their street corners, ensuring that the process would at least be able to succeed. You don't get the latter without the former.

    You absolutely can export Democracy through external force. That is how come we have Democracy in (to name two immediate examples both of whom did not have Western societies on which to build Western forms of government) Japan and India.

    Saudi Arabia and Iran need to step up and clean up their neighborhood.
    by that you mean "engage in proxy war with each other, further messing up the neighborhood, as both seek out regional hegemony and likely nuclear weapons"? Because that is the actual result of what you are proposing

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Local Support is directly proportional to the belief that it has a good chance of succeeding. More Iraqi's came out to vote than Americans did, relative to our populace, in their election, and despite the threat of car bombs, which Americans do not face. They did that because they had US military on their street corners, ensuring that the process would at least be able to succeed. You don't get the latter without the former.

    You absolutely can export Democracy through external force. That is how come we have Democracy in (to name two immediate examples both of whom did not have Western societies on which to build Western forms of government) Japan and India.



    by that you mean "engage in proxy war with each other, further messing up the neighborhood, as both seek out regional hegemony and likely nuclear weapons"? Because that is the actual result of what you are proposing
    India didn't get democracy from external forces. It came from within.
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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Local Support is directly proportional to the belief that it has a good chance of succeeding. More Iraqi's came out to vote than Americans did, relative to our populace, in their election, and despite the threat of car bombs, which Americans do not face. They did that because they had US military on their street corners, ensuring that the process would at least be able to succeed. You don't get the latter without the former.

    You absolutely can export Democracy through external force. That is how come we have Democracy in (to name two immediate examples both of whom did not have Western societies on which to build Western forms of government) Japan and India.
    this is an entirely different situation. you're dealing with a holy war here between sects of Islam that has been going on for eons. adding another endless war isn't going to fix anything there.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    by that you mean "engage in proxy war with each other, further messing up the neighborhood, as both seek out regional hegemony and likely nuclear weapons"? Because that is the actual result of what you are proposing
    if that's going to happen, it will happen regardless of how much we pour into the region. we've been heavily involved in the Middle East for decades, and it's more unstable there than ever. another war won't fix it.

    what we should actually do is to build America into a country where the tech, infrastructure, and standard of living are so good that the rest of the world wants to imitate it. it's time to nation build here at home and leave regional conflicts to the regional hegemons.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Um. Pakistan developed them definitely without our permission. We aren't omnipotent.
    Russia got them without our permission. Everyone else, needed us not to prevent it.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Russia got them without our permission. Everyone else, needed us not to prevent it.
    While our superior monetary and military might allows us to apply a large degree of influence in the world, it's dangerous to assume that somehow translates into omnipotence. Nations have paid for that type of arrogance heavily throughout history.

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    Re: Malala Yousafzai and Kailash Satyarthi Are Awarded Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    While our superior monetary and military might allows us to apply a large degree of influence in the world, it's dangerous to assume that somehow translates into omnipotence. Nations have paid for that type of arrogance heavily throughout history.
    Trust me, we got our fingers in everyone's pie, just ask the NSA.


    Go outside with a sign that says "I'm AL-Queada!" and hold it upwards towards the sky. See how long it takes a spy satellite to send some men in black suits and sunglasses to your door?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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