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Chimpanzees' rights case argued at New York appeals court hearing

Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
I think a relevant question would be: is it particularly smart to enact that kind of evolution onto chimpanzees? Another way to put it is, if they had a higher intelligence would we even want what they'd have to offer?
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I think it's moot point. You can teach a chimp sign language but that won't create larger brain capacities in their offspring, which would bring us right back to chimps being chimps and their natural state isn't one that enables or promotes society-wide education in their species. Teaching chimps sign language wouldn't have any appreciable affect on their genetic code. Not in the short term, anyway. Over many thousands of years and many hundreds of generations, maybe.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
That would work only if

a) through natural selection, the apes themselves selected for superior communication skills, or
b) through artificial selection, we selected for them for superior communication skills.

But through either of those, it would stand to reason that after a few thousand years of this their brains would undergo a dramatic evolution.
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Im not so sure. Its possible that simply by using certain skills the reproduction dna might slightly alter that which hasnt been born yet. DNA probably has a portion that is programmed in real time and daily basis.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Papa bull said:
I think it's moot point. You can teach a chimp sign language but that won't create larger brain capacities in their offspring,
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You misunderstand. Selecting chimps for sign language is choosing those that already have the greater brain capacity.

Papa bull said:
which would bring us right back to chimps being chimps and their natural state isn't one that enables or promotes society-wide education in their species. Teaching chimps sign language wouldn't have any appreciable affect on their genetic code. Not in the short term, anyway. Over many thousands of years and many hundreds of generations, maybe.
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Yes, time is a necessity here, but the evolution would be a bit faster than humans as they reach maturity a few years sooner.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

dirtpoorchris said:
Im not so sure. Its possible that simply by using certain skills the reproduction dna might slightly alter that which hasnt been born yet. DNA probably has a portion that is programmed in real time and daily basis.
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I can't tell what you're saying here.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
You misunderstand. Selecting chimps for sign language is choosing those that already have the greater brain capacity.



Yes, time is a necessity here, but the evolution would be a bit faster than humans as they reach maturity a few years sooner.
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Evolution would work faster with chimps than humans because of the shorter generation cycles but not fast enough for the experiment to work. The brain capacity couldn't increase quickly enough to accommodate the passing on of the complex language skills required for signing. So it would result in a temporary and artificial anomaly. The caveat here is that I would change my mind if there was some evidence that once taught signing, chimps would invariably prefer that communication over their native communication methods that have developed naturally in the species. I've seen no evidence that this is the case. Just like we can teach dogs to give us signals, they only use those signals with us. When they're with other dogs, they revert to their native means of communication within their species.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Papa bull said:
Evolution would work faster with chimps than humans because of the shorter generation cycles but not fast enough for the experiment to work. The brain capacity couldn't increase quickly enough to accommodate the passing on of the complex language skills required for signing. So it would result in a temporary and artificial anomaly. The caveat here is that I would change my mind if there was some evidence that once taught signing, chimps would invariably prefer that communication over their native communication methods that have developed naturally in the species. I've seen no evidence that this is the case. Just like we can teach dogs to give us signals, they only use those signals with us. When they're with other dogs, they revert to their native means of communication within their species.
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They would prefer any superior language if they were capable of utilizing it. They already utilize a chimp language (I researched this yesterday but can't recall the exact size of the average chimp vocabulary), so it would stand to reason that, larger mental processes providing, they would prefer a language that would benefit their community and survival. In the wild they would quickly dominate over chimp communities that didn't have such abilities and theirs would be the new norm.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Until chimps, or any other animal for that matter, can actually become functional members of society and undertake the duties that having rights entails they cannot themselves have rights.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
They would prefer any superior language if they were capable of utilizing it. They already utilize a chimp language (I researched this yesterday but can't recall the exact size of the average chimp vocabulary), so it would stand to reason that, larger mental processes providing, they would prefer a language that would benefit their community and survival. In the wild they would quickly dominate over chimp communities that didn't have such abilities and theirs would be the new norm.
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If sign language would be superior for chimps in chimp habitat living chimp lives, I'd think that evolution would already have them moving that direction. Cut down all the trees and force them to adapt to live in the open and this could change but they evolved living in the trees in dense forests where body language and loud vocalizations would tend to be more useful than sign language. For chimp lifestyles and chimp societies and chimp habitats, they've already evolved significantly in the direction of what is most effective (just like every other species). Planet of the Apes is fiction. It's so interesting that we may want it to be a possible truth, but alas... Hollywood and reality aren't very closely connected.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Gaius46 said:
Until chimps, or any other animal for that matter, can actually become functional members of society and undertake the duties that having rights entails they cannot themselves have rights.
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As Southern Democrat already said, we don't need to talk about gun, voting or driving rights just to have that discussion. Rights are a wide field, such as in this case not to be caged and experimented on indiscriminately. Their superior intelligence to other animals certainly qualifies them for that much.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
To be fair, it was you who blew it all up, you...you sons of bitches.

By the way, did anyone else have a problem that the final twist of the movie is on the front cover? It would be like showing Bruce Willis as a ghost on the poster for The Sixth Sense.
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It wasn't originally when it was in the theaters if I remember correctly. This is one of those iconic movies where everybody knows the twist ending. As for Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense poster how do we know he is NOT a ghost? The movie business is like politics, its all monkey business. :mrgreen:

On a somewhat serious note addressing the topic at hand the reason for the chips rights movement is money, and power, mainly money though. Mentally disabled people for the most part have familial relations that assist them and represent their interests and where necessary guardianship. There is little financial motivation as most times the guardians are supporting partially or fully out of their own pockets. Therefore generally speaking motivation is to ensure the well being of their charge.

We know that chimps in the US are generally two places research labs and zoos. As chimps as far as known have no familial guardians or family capable of representing their interests, who then is appointed their guardians? Who represents their interests? Who knows what those interests may be? Zoos and research labs generally have money, so basically this is shakedown by some ingeniously creative and crafty lawyers, and the animals are people too crowd. The lawyers get to represent the chimps and the animals are people too crowd get judicial precedence to further their agenda. I know its a very cynical view, but the older I get the more I see and the more cynical I get.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Papa bull said:
Planet of the Apes is fiction. It's so interesting that we may want it to be a possible truth, but alas... Hollywood and reality aren't very closely connected.
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Lies....
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
As Southern Democrat already said, we don't need to talk about gun, voting or driving rights just to have that discussion. Rights are a wide field, such as in this case not to be caged and experimented on indiscriminately. Their superior intelligence to other animals certainly qualifies them for that much.
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Those ends, which I agree with, are best served via laws mandating the humane treatment of animals. We don't need to extend animals rights to make that happen.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

I don't think that animals should be granted full human rights, but I would ban most personal ownership of many types of social, physically active and/or intelligent animals because it is cruel.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Some of the people I see living in this country make me wonder if chimpanzees don't already have civil rights.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Hard Truth said:
I don't think that animals should be granted full human rights, but I would ban most personal ownership of many types of social, physically active and/or intelligent animals because it is cruel.
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Why do you think that it's cruel. My dogs and cats are treated as members of my family and to all appearances believe they are members of the family. It may not be an exact parallel to a chimp, for example, but if a chimp is raised as a member of a household I'm not seeing what's particularly cruel about that. Merely taking an animal from it's natural habitat doesn't strike me as being cruel.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Gaius46 said:
Why do you think that it's cruel. My dogs and cats are treated as members of my family and to all appearances believe they are members of the family. It may not be an exact parallel to a chimp, for example, but if a chimp is raised as a member of a household I'm not seeing what's particularly cruel about that. Merely taking an animal from it's natural habitat doesn't strike me as being cruel.
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I don't have a problem with having animals that are suitable for living with people such as cats and dogs and many others. Chimps and most other primates and many other animals are too dangerous and/or destructive to raise as a member of a family. Read up on what happens when people try. The result is usually the chimp seriously hurting someone and winding up spending the rest of his life in a cage. There are good reasons why the specific animals that are routinely used as pets were selected. Animals have a variety of special needs. Many are very social so being isolated is torture. Others need to migrate, hunt or run freely. Few zoos manage to give animals a proper environment, so it is very unlikely that an individual can do it.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

dirtpoorchris said:
Im not so sure. Its possible that simply by using certain skills the reproduction dna might slightly alter that which hasnt been born yet. DNA probably has a portion that is programmed in real time and daily basis.
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Evolution happens due to mutation and natural selection, living things can not will their DNA to change.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Gaius46 said:
Until chimps, or any other animal for that matter, can actually become functional members of society and undertake the duties that having rights entails they cannot themselves have rights.
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Every living thing has rights to the degree they are able to protect those rights.* Every living thing deserves some basic rights that should only be violated for very good reasons in my opinion.

*Where do lions sleep? Anywhere they want to.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Hard Truth said:
I don't have a problem with having animals that are suitable for living with people such as cats and dogs and many others. Chimps and most other primates and many other animals are too dangerous and/or destructive to raise as a member of a family. Read up on what happens when people try. The result is usually the chimp seriously hurting someone and winding up spending the rest of his life in a cage. There are good reasons why the specific animals that are routinely used as pets were selected. Animals have a variety of special needs. Many are very social so being isolated is torture. Others need to migrate, hunt or run freely. Few zoos manage to give animals a proper environment, so it is very unlikely that an individual can do it.
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The part about destructiveness and hunting instinct is sensible and I agree. To me keeping a big cat is a bad idea. I'm less sure about hunting birds though.

I also do wonder if a social animal really needs to be among it's own to socialize. Again I'm drawing a possibly wrong parallel to dogs but dogs which in the wild are pack animals don't seem to have much trouble with having humans and cats in their pack.
 
recalcitrant said:
Chimpanzees' rights case argued at New York appeals court hearing - CBS News

Every chimp should go to school and vote in elections and get food stamps and own a gun and be read their miranda rights when being put under arrest



Yeah well I AM! Steven Wise isn't going far enough!

Knowing the republicans though they'll make polling times difficult to dolphins and make dolphins wait in line for like 12 hours and suggest dolphins to get voter ID that they just can't get for some reason.

Are we ready though for all the illegal alien dolphins from mexico swimming up to our coasts?
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Since when is a chimp a "Man" or a "People"....


I think some of these people have watched too many Planet of the Apes movies.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Hard Truth said:
Every living thing has rights to the degree they are able to protect those rights.* Every living thing deserves some basic rights that should only be violated for very good reasons in my opinion.

*Where do lions sleep? Anywhere they want to.
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Chimps have the mental capacity of a 3-5 year old hence they should recieve the rights a 3 or 5 year old receive.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Mr.Nick said:
Chimps have the mental capacity of a 3-5 year old hence they should recieve the rights a 3 or 5 year old receive.
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Perhaps. I think I can accept that since we don't keep children in cages.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Hard Truth said:
Perhaps. I think I can accept that since we don't keep children in cages.
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No we just put toddlers on "time out."

I suppose here we're talking about research chimps?

If anyone cares research chimps save millions of lives every year........ Would you rather we hold medical trials on human beings?

Do I like to see Chimps (or any animals die) hell no I don't but if the purpose is to study diseases and other research that could help save humans - I can overlook my disgust...
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Cardinal said:
That would work only if

a) through natural selection, the apes themselves selected for superior communication skills, or
b) through artificial selection, we selected for them for superior communication skills.

But through either of those, it would stand to reason that after a few thousand years of this their brains would undergo a dramatic evolution.
Click to expand...

Like us, chimps (as well as orangutans, dolphins, and elephants) pass on skills they learn to other members of their group. They even have a primitive culture. So its quite possible that they would pass on sign language to other members of their group, and subsequent generations would get better and better at it since it would be a learned skill.
 
Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

Absolutely not. I am not giving up my trunk monkey!

 
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