Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 87

Thread: Chimpanzees' rights case argued at New York appeals court hearing

  1. #51
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I think a relevant question would be: is it particularly smart to enact that kind of evolution onto chimpanzees? Another way to put it is, if they had a higher intelligence would we even want what they'd have to offer?
    I think it's moot point. You can teach a chimp sign language but that won't create larger brain capacities in their offspring, which would bring us right back to chimps being chimps and their natural state isn't one that enables or promotes society-wide education in their species. Teaching chimps sign language wouldn't have any appreciable affect on their genetic code. Not in the short term, anyway. Over many thousands of years and many hundreds of generations, maybe.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  2. #52
    King of Videos
    dirtpoorchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    WA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    7,008

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That would work only if

    a) through natural selection, the apes themselves selected for superior communication skills, or
    b) through artificial selection, we selected for them for superior communication skills.

    But through either of those, it would stand to reason that after a few thousand years of this their brains would undergo a dramatic evolution.
    Im not so sure. Its possible that simply by using certain skills the reproduction dna might slightly alter that which hasnt been born yet. DNA probably has a portion that is programmed in real time and daily basis.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

  3. #53
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,999

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think it's moot point. You can teach a chimp sign language but that won't create larger brain capacities in their offspring,
    You misunderstand. Selecting chimps for sign language is choosing those that already have the greater brain capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    which would bring us right back to chimps being chimps and their natural state isn't one that enables or promotes society-wide education in their species. Teaching chimps sign language wouldn't have any appreciable affect on their genetic code. Not in the short term, anyway. Over many thousands of years and many hundreds of generations, maybe.
    Yes, time is a necessity here, but the evolution would be a bit faster than humans as they reach maturity a few years sooner.

  4. #54
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,999

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Im not so sure. Its possible that simply by using certain skills the reproduction dna might slightly alter that which hasnt been born yet. DNA probably has a portion that is programmed in real time and daily basis.
    I can't tell what you're saying here.

  5. #55
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    You misunderstand. Selecting chimps for sign language is choosing those that already have the greater brain capacity.



    Yes, time is a necessity here, but the evolution would be a bit faster than humans as they reach maturity a few years sooner.
    Evolution would work faster with chimps than humans because of the shorter generation cycles but not fast enough for the experiment to work. The brain capacity couldn't increase quickly enough to accommodate the passing on of the complex language skills required for signing. So it would result in a temporary and artificial anomaly. The caveat here is that I would change my mind if there was some evidence that once taught signing, chimps would invariably prefer that communication over their native communication methods that have developed naturally in the species. I've seen no evidence that this is the case. Just like we can teach dogs to give us signals, they only use those signals with us. When they're with other dogs, they revert to their native means of communication within their species.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  6. #56
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,999

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Evolution would work faster with chimps than humans because of the shorter generation cycles but not fast enough for the experiment to work. The brain capacity couldn't increase quickly enough to accommodate the passing on of the complex language skills required for signing. So it would result in a temporary and artificial anomaly. The caveat here is that I would change my mind if there was some evidence that once taught signing, chimps would invariably prefer that communication over their native communication methods that have developed naturally in the species. I've seen no evidence that this is the case. Just like we can teach dogs to give us signals, they only use those signals with us. When they're with other dogs, they revert to their native means of communication within their species.
    They would prefer any superior language if they were capable of utilizing it. They already utilize a chimp language (I researched this yesterday but can't recall the exact size of the average chimp vocabulary), so it would stand to reason that, larger mental processes providing, they would prefer a language that would benefit their community and survival. In the wild they would quickly dominate over chimp communities that didn't have such abilities and theirs would be the new norm.

  7. #57
    Sage
    Gaius46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,457

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Until chimps, or any other animal for that matter, can actually become functional members of society and undertake the duties that having rights entails they cannot themselves have rights.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  8. #58
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    They would prefer any superior language if they were capable of utilizing it. They already utilize a chimp language (I researched this yesterday but can't recall the exact size of the average chimp vocabulary), so it would stand to reason that, larger mental processes providing, they would prefer a language that would benefit their community and survival. In the wild they would quickly dominate over chimp communities that didn't have such abilities and theirs would be the new norm.
    If sign language would be superior for chimps in chimp habitat living chimp lives, I'd think that evolution would already have them moving that direction. Cut down all the trees and force them to adapt to live in the open and this could change but they evolved living in the trees in dense forests where body language and loud vocalizations would tend to be more useful than sign language. For chimp lifestyles and chimp societies and chimp habitats, they've already evolved significantly in the direction of what is most effective (just like every other species). Planet of the Apes is fiction. It's so interesting that we may want it to be a possible truth, but alas... Hollywood and reality aren't very closely connected.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  9. #59
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,999

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Until chimps, or any other animal for that matter, can actually become functional members of society and undertake the duties that having rights entails they cannot themselves have rights.
    As Southern Democrat already said, we don't need to talk about gun, voting or driving rights just to have that discussion. Rights are a wide field, such as in this case not to be caged and experimented on indiscriminately. Their superior intelligence to other animals certainly qualifies them for that much.

  10. #60
    Resident Martian ;)
    PirateMk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    9,922

    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    To be fair, it was you who blew it all up, you...you sons of bitches.

    By the way, did anyone else have a problem that the final twist of the movie is on the front cover? It would be like showing Bruce Willis as a ghost on the poster for The Sixth Sense.
    It wasn't originally when it was in the theaters if I remember correctly. This is one of those iconic movies where everybody knows the twist ending. As for Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense poster how do we know he is NOT a ghost? The movie business is like politics, its all monkey business.

    On a somewhat serious note addressing the topic at hand the reason for the chips rights movement is money, and power, mainly money though. Mentally disabled people for the most part have familial relations that assist them and represent their interests and where necessary guardianship. There is little financial motivation as most times the guardians are supporting partially or fully out of their own pockets. Therefore generally speaking motivation is to ensure the well being of their charge.

    We know that chimps in the US are generally two places research labs and zoos. As chimps as far as known have no familial guardians or family capable of representing their interests, who then is appointed their guardians? Who represents their interests? Who knows what those interests may be? Zoos and research labs generally have money, so basically this is shakedown by some ingeniously creative and crafty lawyers, and the animals are people too crowd. The lawyers get to represent the chimps and the animals are people too crowd get judicial precedence to further their agenda. I know its a very cynical view, but the older I get the more I see and the more cynical I get.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •