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Thread: Chimpanzees' rights case argued at New York appeals court hearing

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Our DNA makes us human, and as humans we have a particular nature. Humans are rational, moral beings that require a rational, moral code of survival. Chimps can survive as chimps without either. We cant.
    Chimps form social groups and at time those social groups or "gangs" go to war...

    Chimps are pretty damn smart - just too stupid to be in control of their emotions - especially when drunk or high.

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The exact degree to which they possess any of these things is ultimately debatable.

    However, in any case, I would agree that they have the "right" not to be treated with wanton cruelty, as with any other living creature. I simply wouldn't say that they are deserving of "human rights," per se.

    I mean... Let's face it, if you found yourself on a lifeboat with five people, a chimpanzee, and no food to eat, it certainly wouldn't be a human being who "took one for the team" first.
    I know, but as I suggested to Fletch, they deserve a category that, while not human, per se, is definitely above other animals.

    There's reasoning:

    (PhysOrg.com) -- A new study conducted by researchers from the Max Planck Institute in Germany, with results published in PLoS ONE, shows that some apes are capable of using insightful reasoning to achieve goals. When presented with a peanut floating in a tube a quarter filled with water, some chimpanzees were able to figure out that they could raise the water level, and hence the peanut, by filling their mouths with water from a nearby dispenser, then spitting it into the tube. Doing so enough times, raised the floating peanut to such a level that they were eventually able to retrieve and eat it.
    Study shows chimps capable of insightful reasoning ability

    Communication:
    Besides humans, the research shows that chimps are the only animals with a system of intentional communication, where one individual sends a message to another individual.
    The 66 gestures which show how chimpanzees communicate - Telegraph

    Communication with humans using ASL:

    A female chimpanzee named Washoe kicked off man's earnest quest to teach chimps human language. She was born in Africa in 1965 and eventually taken to Washoe County, Nev. (her namesake); that's where Washoe became the subject of cognitive research performed by Allen and Beatrix Gardener. The chimp wowed the world when she successfully learned American Sign Language, which had never happened before with a nonhuman primate. Washoe then passed her skills on to her adopted son Loulis, and by the time she died in 2007, Washoe had mastered around 130 signs [source: Carey].
    HowStuffWorks "Chimpanzee Communication"

    They're self aware:

    Chimpanzees are self-aware and can anticipate the impact of their actions on the environment around them, an ability once thought to be uniquely human, according to a study released Wednesday.

    The findings, reported in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B, challenge assumptions about the boundary between human and non-human, and shed light on the evolutionary origins of consciousness, the researchers said.
    Chimps Are Self Aware : Discovery News

    And finally, the very foundation one would need for discerning right from wrong:
    Before we can accept that animals have a sense of right and wrong, we need to accept that they have some form of intelligence and can understand intention and consequences. Because it's difficult to measure the motivation behind animal actions, experts are focusing on species that are considered highly intelligent, like chimpanzees. In studies, scientists have found that chimpanzees and other primates can make a distinction between "accidental" and "deliberate" actions [source: Ross]. This could mean some animals are able to understand the meaning behind some actions (accidentally bumping into another animal versus attacking the other animal on purpose), which could explain why their reactions to these things are different.

    Hauser is not the only one who believes morals are part of our genetic makeup. Professor Marc Bekoff, from the University of Colorado, says chimpanzees have a sense of justice (they set wrongs straight within their own communities) and dolphins have shown empathy by rescuing swimmers in distress [source: Daily Mail]. He believes a basic sense of morality is innate to all mammals but stronger in species that live in tight-knit groups. Bekoff's research on canids (especially wolves and coyotes) has shown that some animals have a sense of fairness and can become distressed if they perceive they're being treated unfairly by others, be it humans or members of their own packs [source: Wolchover].
    Big Question: Do animals have a sense of right and wrong? : Discovery Channel
    Last edited by Cardinal; 10-09-14 at 12:50 AM.

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I know, but as I suggested to Fletch, they deserve a category that, while not human, per se, is definitely above other animals.

    There's reasoning:



    Study shows chimps capable of insightful reasoning ability

    Communication:


    The 66 gestures which show how chimpanzees communicate - Telegraph

    Communication with humans using ASL:



    HowStuffWorks "Chimpanzee Communication"

    They're self aware:



    Chimps Are Self Aware : Discovery News

    And finally, the very foundation one would need for discerning right from wrong:


    Big Question: Do animals have a sense of right and wrong? : Discovery Channel
    Chimps are pretty smart, but rights are meaningless to them. They don't understand the concept and would not, therefore, respect the rights of man. Granting 'rights' to animals is simply a way to limit the behavior of man. It would place no limitations on the animal. Granting 'rights' to a shark would forbid man from hunting them down. It would not do much to protect you, however, if you were splashing around in the ocean and a hungry shark happened by.

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Chimps are pretty smart, but rights are meaningless to them. They don't understand the concept and would not, therefore, respect the rights of man. Granting 'rights' to animals is simply a way to limit the behavior of man. It would place no limitations on the animal. Granting 'rights' to a shark would forbid man from hunting them down. It would not do much to protect you, however, if you were splashing around in the ocean and a hungry shark happened by.
    If there are no limitations on man, then it's pointless to look down on the animal for displaying an equal absence of limitations.

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I know, but as I suggested to Fletch, they deserve a category that, while not human, per se, is definitely above other animals.

    There's reasoning:



    Study shows chimps capable of insightful reasoning ability

    Communication:


    The 66 gestures which show how chimpanzees communicate - Telegraph

    Communication with humans using ASL:



    HowStuffWorks "Chimpanzee Communication"

    They're self aware:



    Chimps Are Self Aware : Discovery News

    And finally, the very foundation one would need for discerning right from wrong:


    Big Question: Do animals have a sense of right and wrong? : Discovery Channel
    Dolphins are way more intelligent than primates - even Chimps. They clearly show that when they go bat**** on humans for mistreating them... They damn well know they're being mocked then they go crazy...

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    The way we treat cattle, and pigs, and animals in general is ridiculous. If something feels pain it should be illegal to hurt it for no reason. At least let these animals lead a half normal life before eating them. Keeping them in pens they cant even turn around in their whole life.... If I were an alien I wouldnt help earth. We dont have to give chimps rights to be human. But they should have a right to be a chimp.
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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I know, but as I suggested to Fletch, they deserve a category that, while not human, per se, is definitely above other animals.

    There's reasoning:



    Study shows chimps capable of insightful reasoning ability

    Communication:


    The 66 gestures which show how chimpanzees communicate - Telegraph

    Communication with humans using ASL:



    HowStuffWorks "Chimpanzee Communication"

    They're self aware:



    Chimps Are Self Aware : Discovery News

    And finally, the very foundation one would need for discerning right from wrong:


    Big Question: Do animals have a sense of right and wrong? : Discovery Channel
    Imagine the same lineage of chimps being taught sign language for a few hundred years. Im pretty sure almost each new birth would produce a chimp that is more capable of hand signs. Would be interesting to see if a chimps last born is more savy than a chimps first born because perhaps some genetic info from the parents had more time to trickle down as the parent learned and taught. aka how programmable is "passed down" dna for 1 life cycle and does chimp pass more different genetic info at 20% lifecycle compared to and old 80%+ chimp.
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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by recalcitrant View Post
    Chimpanzees' rights case argued at New York appeals court hearing - CBS News

    Every chimp should go to school and vote in elections and get food stamps and own a gun and be read their miranda rights when being put under arrest
    So should the mentally disabled not be granted basic rights then? For example, if an individual has down's syndrome and has the mental capacity of a 4 year old as an adult, should they be able to be kept in a cage their entire life and be subject to medical experiments?

    Chimpanzees, as well as most whale and dolphin species, elephants, orangutans, and gorillas, are unique in the animal kingdom in that they are self aware, have cultures that they pass down from generation to generation, in most cases mourn their dead, can empathize with other animals and humans, and in the case of elephants, are even capable of creating art (many like to paint). So why would we not grant them some basic rights that we would not grant a lab rat for example? No one is arguing they should be able to vote, enter into contracts, qualify for Social Security, or hold elected office. What is being argued is that a chimpanzee, our closest living relative (in fact we are simply a third chimpanzee species in evolutionary terms), should be granted basic rights such as the right to not be imprisoned in solitary confinement its entire life, the right to not be subjected to crippling medical experiments, basically the right to live the life of a chimpanzee. What is wrong with that?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Well, do u want a bunch of chimps running around like monkeys run around India?..
    Yes.

    Also, you do realize that all primates can be quite vicious? who are you going to sue when some ape bites your nose off - the government?
    I'm gonna sue the ape with Steven Wise as their attorney.

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    Re: Do chimps deserve the same basic rights as people?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    So should the mentally disabled not be granted basic rights then? For example, if an individual has down's syndrome and has the mental capacity of a 4 year old as an adult, should they be able to be kept in a cage their entire life and be subject to medical experiments?
    No.


    Chimpanzees, as well as most whale and dolphin species, elephants, orangutans, and gorillas, are unique in the animal kingdom in that they are self aware, have cultures that they pass down from generation to generation, in most cases mourn their dead, can empathize with other animals and humans, and in the case of elephants, are even capable of creating art (many like to paint). So why would we not grant them some basic rights that we would not grant a lab rat for example? No one is arguing they should be able to vote, enter into contracts, qualify for Social Security, or hold elected office. What is being argued is that a chimpanzee, our closest living relative (in fact we are simply a third chimpanzee species in evolutionary terms), should be granted basic rights such as the right to not be imprisoned in solitary confinement its entire life, the right to not be subjected to crippling medical experiments, basically the right to live the life of a chimpanzee. What is wrong with that?
    I agree. Why not? I just don't want any illegal dolphins, illegal apes or illegal elephant immigrants sneaking across our borders and taking up all of our resources.

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