• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples’ Day

And if you really feel so bad about that, perhaps you all should give the land back and move to Europe. :roll:
.

It's not so much that I feel bad about it as that I don't believe we need to celebrate it.
 
Um, they were bloody thirsty barbarians. The Native American population (in the 48 states) went from an average of twelve million to some 230,000 by the 20th century, three million died under Columbus, and Cortez himself killed about 270,000 natives. I'm well aware that the Natives went to war with each other, and some civilizations did indeed practice human sacrifice, but it was the Europeans who decimated them. The only reason to push the idea (within the context of Columbus day only) of the Native Americans practicing warfare is only to mitigate the severity of the Europeans' actions.

In all fairness most of the deaths of Native Americans were due to the diseases like smallpox we brought over with us.
 
In the 19th century, Manifest Destiny was the widely held belief in the United States that American settlers were destined to expand throughout the continent. Historians have for the most part agreed that there are three basic themes to Manifest Destiny:

The special virtues of the American people and their institutions;
America's mission to redeem and remake the west in the image of agrarian America;
An irresistible destiny to accomplish this essential duty.

I'm not sure I see how what we're doing in the world now is much different? I believe the American way is the best, especially for my taste, but it shouldn't be forced.
 
Actually, I know that disease was responsible for the majority of it, and am (with the exception of the infamous pox blanket incident) attributing their deaths to a super large scale (and really grim) "oopsie." This still doesn't mitigate forced enslavement, forced conversions, conquests or brutal executions of those who rebelled. Also, as you've opened this up from Columbus to to Europeans in general, are you sure you really want to talk about what happened in North America as well? Because stats start to get much more specific as time goes on.

Well, yes, a lot of those things did happen. Most of them were wrong, and inexcusable, from a modern perspective.

Again, however, to try and paint this as being something intrinsic to European dealings with the natives alone would be something of a mistake. Have you read about the atrocities Europeans committed against other Europeans during the Thirty Years War, for instance, or any of the other various rebellions and wars of religion which occurred between Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims in the same era that the European colonization of the Americas was taking place?

To put it bluntly, they'll make your hair stand on end.

This wasn't just true of Europeans either. The Native Americans were just as bad, if not worse, as was just about every other people on earth in that era.

The simple fact of the matter is that it was just a more brutal time in general, where, often violent, authoritarianism was the way of the world, and life was commonly regarded as being rather cheap. In that context, trying to differentiate things in terms of "right" and "wrong" through a modern cultural lens simply doesn't work.

Frankly, there's no more sense in a modern American feeling "guilty" about their ancestors' treatment of the Native Americans, than there is in a modern Italian feeling guilty about his people's treatment of the French under the Roman Empire.

Such events were simply a product of the times in which they occurred. Those times are now in the past, where they should remain.

It's not so much that I feel bad about it as that I don't believe we need to celebrate it.

It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

Celebrate that, if nothing else.
 
Last edited:
And if you really feel so bad about that, perhaps you all should give the land back and move to Europe. :roll:

No?

Then shut up about it.

The "Oh, woe is me! Why am I such an evil white person!?" routine is trite, dated, and frankly insulting to the peoples you claim to be honoring.

/double like.
 
This is the second time today I am reminded of one of these videos. Check it out. The Columbus related stuff starts at about minute 2:15.



Wow that was completely worthless and not even on topic. But I'm sure the wingnuts like it. Law & Order and Avatar are made up videos except to conservatives who seem to think they are real. Dances with Wolves was a fantastic MOVIE. I guess the moron in the video missed all those John Wayne movies portraying soldiers as always right and the "Redskin" as evil. Plenty of those type movies around. Terry Schiavo was bad but I guess he forgot about the evangelical saint who murdered an obgyn doctor in his own church. Good, bad and a lot of grey. Certainly no absolutes as this "knucklehead" likes to spout. God bless Jon Stewart, and Stephen Colbert for that matter.
 
Well, yes, a lot of those things did happen. Most of them were wrong, and inexcusable.

Again, however, to try and paint this as being something intrinsic to European dealings with the natives alone would be something of a mistake. Have you read about the atrocities Europeans committed against other Europeans during the Thirty Years War, for instance, or any of the other various rebellions and wars of religion which occurred between Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims in the same era that the European colonization of the Americas was taking place?

To put it bluntly, they'll make your hair stand on end.

This wasn't just true of Europeans either. The Native Americans were just as bad, if not worse, as was just about every other people on earth at the time.

The simple fact of the matter is that it was a more brutal time in general, where, often violent, authoritarianism was the way of the world, and life was commonly regarded as being rather cheap. In that context, trying to differentiate things in terms of "right" and "wrong" through a modern cultural lens simply doesn't work.

Frankly, there's no more sense in a modern American feeling "guilty" about their ancestors' treatment of the Native Americans, than there is in a modern Italian feeling guilty about his people's treatment of the French under the Roman Empire.

These events were simply a product of the times in which they occurred. Those times are now in the past, where they should belong.



It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

Celebrate that, if nothing else.

You've got me wrong: I don't actually have any desire for Americans to feel guilty about themselves, in fact quite the opposite. I believe that optimism and positivity are critical qualities in becoming a superior culture (among others, of course). The way I would put it is something like this, "In spite of past mistakes and tragedies, American civilization has continually found ways to better itself and become a leading example for democracy and the ethical treatment of other people." (or something like that -- feel free to send that on to Bob in Editing). What I can not tolerate is raising objectively terrible people up as heroes to emulate. We don't need to sugar coat our history in order to believe positively in ourselves, we just need to know that we can, and always have, figured out what was right and successfully fought for it (eventually).

Anyway, point is, Columbus was a dick.
 
It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

Celebrate that, if nothing else.
No ...I will not.
I don't feel guilty.
Columbus was scum and I have been glad to say so every October.
 
You've got me wrong: I don't actually have any desire for Americans to feel guilty about themselves, in fact quite the opposite. I believe that optimism and positivity are critical qualities in becoming a superior culture (among others, of course). The way I would put it is something like this, "In spite of past mistakes and tragedies, American civilization has continually found ways to better itself and become a leading example for democracy and the ethical treatment of other people." (or something like that -- feel free to send that on to Bob in Editing). What I can not tolerate is raising objectively terrible people up as heroes to emulate. We don't need to sugar coat our history in order to believe positively in ourselves, we just need to know that we can, and always have, figured out what was right and successfully fought for it (eventually).

Anyway, point is, Columbus was a dick.

I agree with you on that. The guy was basically a common thug drunk on power, who tried to run the land he had been given like his own personal "Heart of Darkness."

I have absolutely no problem with renaming the holiday for that exact reason.

Again, I'd simply prefer that it be changed to something more along the lines of "Discovery Day," with indigenous peoples being given their own holiday, than having the European element thrown out entirely in favor of the natives.
 
When Capt. Cook arrived on the coast of BC the natives there lived better, healthier, easier lives than the average crewman from Resolution.

But... but we brought them civilization!
 
I agree with you on that. The guy was basically a common thug drunk on power, who tried to run the land he had been given like his own personal "Heart of Darkness."

I have absolutely no problem with renaming the holiday for that exact reason.

Again, I'd simply prefer that it be changed to something more along the lines of "Discovery Day," with indigenous peoples being given their own holiday, than having the European element thrown out entirely in favor of the natives.

What about Bartolome de las Casas Day?

Christopher Columbus was awful (but this other guy was not) - The Oatmeal
 
But... but we brought them civilization!

It not exactly hard to live a "healthier, easier" life than some scurvy ridden sailor who's been stuffed into a leaky, undersized floating wooden box in the middle of the ocean for the last six to eight months with nothing but maggot ridden half-rotten 18th century military rations to eat. :lol:
 
Ugh. Typical. :roll:

Sure, Columbus was a bad person. Sure, he probably doesn't deserve to have a holiday named after him.

Replacing it with some gag-worthy P.C. garbage like "Indigenous Peoples Day," however? That's just idiotic.

Replace it with "Discovery Day" or something else along those lines, and give indigenous peoples their own holiday. The only thing the city has accomplished with this particular farce is to substitute one poorly thought out ethnocentric holiday for another on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Why is it wrong to celebrate people who suffered everything from enslavement to genocide? May 8th is Holocaust Remembrance Day. We celebrate holidays which have nothing to do with attacks on indigenous people: St. Patricks, Cinco de Mayo. We also celebrate cultures. We have African-American Month. Reagan celebrated German-American day and even signed it into law. Why are some non-racist white people so against a debate in which Americans discuss holidays remembering important parts of history? They just stand against it like it's something negative.
 
I agree with you on that. The guy was basically a common thug drunk on power, who tried to run the land he had been given like his own personal "Heart of Darkness."

I have absolutely no problem with renaming the holiday for that exact reason.

Again, I'd simply prefer that it be changed to something more along the lines of "Discovery Day," with indigenous peoples being given their own holiday, than having the European element thrown out entirely in favor of the natives.
So you don't object to renaming Columbus day to something else and you don't object to giving the indigenous people a holiday we can honor them with. You just don't like the elegance of doing both on the same day... because it somehow seems to be "politically correct" and that can't be cool?
WOW...
I think Seattle got this one just right.
I think you are too concerned with correcting political correctness.
 
Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples' Day - TIME

gee, I wonder who's running things in Seattle? Where's my thinkin' cap?

I believe we can celebrate "Columbus Day" as the day when "America" first became possible-even if by coincidence. Columbus notwithstanding, even if he is the name attached to the day.

and I can imagine the speeches: Today, on indigenous people's day, we celebrate surrender, being tricked, and discovering that our stone age way of life could not exist when confronted with Renaissance/Modern peoples?

You know that your avatar depicts a tyrannical theocrat, right? I'm pretty sure that based on your OP, you and I would have massively different opinions about Justinian I.

(And yes, this does relate to the topic at hand.)
 
Why is it wrong to celebrate people who suffered everything from enslavement to genocide? May 8th is Holocaust Remembrance Day. We celebrate holidays which have nothing to do with attacks on indigenous people: St. Patricks, Cinco de Mayo. We also celebrate cultures. We have African-American Month. Reagan celebrated German-American day and even signed it into law. Why are some non-racist white people so against a debate in which Americans discuss holidays remembering important parts of history? They just stand against it like it's something negative.

Give the natives their own holiday then.

The implication of replacing a holiday honoring the European discovery of the Americas with a holiday only honoring native peoples is that the European discovery of the Americas was a mistake, and that we shouldn't be here.

I don't know about you, but I, for one, find that to be insulting.

So you don't object to renaming Columbus day to something else and you don't object to giving the indigenous people a holiday we can honor them with. You just don't like the elegance of doing both on the same day... because it somehow seems to be "politically correct" and that can't be cool?
WOW...
I think Seattle got this one just right.
I think you are too concerned with correcting political correctness.

I fail to see how "Indigenous Peoples Day" can be said to "do both on the same day." The name alone only honors native peoples, while ignoring the descendants of European colonists entirely.
 
Give the natives their own holiday then.

The implication of replacing a holiday honoring the European discovery of the Americas with a holiday only honoring native peoples is that the European discovery of the Americas was a mistake, and that we shouldn't be here.

I don't know about you, but I, for one, find that to be insulting.



I fail to see how "Indigenous Peoples Day" can be said to "do both on the same day." The name alone only honors native peoples, while ignoring the descendants of European colonists entirely.
We have a day honoring European colonists ...
It's called Independence day.
 
Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples' Day - TIME

gee, I wonder who's running things in Seattle? Where's my thinkin' cap?

I believe we can celebrate "Columbus Day" as the day when "America" first became possible-even if by coincidence. Columbus notwithstanding, even if he is the name attached to the day.

and I can imagine the speeches: Today, on indigenous people's day, we celebrate surrender, being tricked, and discovering that our stone age way of life could not exist when confronted with Renaissance/Modern peoples?

That is one of the dumbest PC ideas I have ever heard.....

Do the progressives realized that the "settlers" settled on the Atlantic and not the Pacific?
 
We have a day honoring European colonists ...
It's called Independence day.

No, that's a day honoring the secession of the Thirteen Colonies from Great Britain, which would eventually lead to formation of the United States of America.

It took place several hundred years after Europeans had already colonized the Americas.
 
Revisionist history to fit a political agenda ..... it's more fun to watch than a circus.
 
Far as I am concerned, Columbus Day they might as well do away with it. The only people who have off are the banks and government workers. Columbus Day is pretty much like every other day except for that. There are no more parades or anything like there use to be.

But if it was done away with, you could have your Columbus Day sales.
 
Back
Top Bottom