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Thread: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Actually, I know that disease was responsible for the majority of it, and am (with the exception of the infamous pox blanket incident) attributing their deaths to a super large scale (and really grim) "oopsie." This still doesn't mitigate forced enslavement, forced conversions, conquests or brutal executions of those who rebelled. Also, as you've opened this up from Columbus to to Europeans in general, are you sure you really want to talk about what happened in North America as well? Because stats start to get much more specific as time goes on.
    Well, yes, a lot of those things did happen. Most of them were wrong, and inexcusable, from a modern perspective.

    Again, however, to try and paint this as being something intrinsic to European dealings with the natives alone would be something of a mistake. Have you read about the atrocities Europeans committed against other Europeans during the Thirty Years War, for instance, or any of the other various rebellions and wars of religion which occurred between Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims in the same era that the European colonization of the Americas was taking place?

    To put it bluntly, they'll make your hair stand on end.

    This wasn't just true of Europeans either. The Native Americans were just as bad, if not worse, as was just about every other people on earth in that era.

    The simple fact of the matter is that it was just a more brutal time in general, where, often violent, authoritarianism was the way of the world, and life was commonly regarded as being rather cheap. In that context, trying to differentiate things in terms of "right" and "wrong" through a modern cultural lens simply doesn't work.

    Frankly, there's no more sense in a modern American feeling "guilty" about their ancestors' treatment of the Native Americans, than there is in a modern Italian feeling guilty about his people's treatment of the French under the Roman Empire.

    Such events were simply a product of the times in which they occurred. Those times are now in the past, where they should remain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    It's not so much that I feel bad about it as that I don't believe we need to celebrate it.
    It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

    Celebrate that, if nothing else.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 10-08-14 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    And if you really feel so bad about that, perhaps you all should give the land back and move to Europe.

    No?

    Then shut up about it.

    The "Oh, woe is me! Why am I such an evil white person!?" routine is trite, dated, and frankly insulting to the peoples you claim to be honoring.
    /double like.
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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Porchev View Post
    This is the second time today I am reminded of one of these videos. Check it out. The Columbus related stuff starts at about minute 2:15.

    Wow that was completely worthless and not even on topic. But I'm sure the wingnuts like it. Law & Order and Avatar are made up videos except to conservatives who seem to think they are real. Dances with Wolves was a fantastic MOVIE. I guess the moron in the video missed all those John Wayne movies portraying soldiers as always right and the "Redskin" as evil. Plenty of those type movies around. Terry Schiavo was bad but I guess he forgot about the evangelical saint who murdered an obgyn doctor in his own church. Good, bad and a lot of grey. Certainly no absolutes as this "knucklehead" likes to spout. God bless Jon Stewart, and Stephen Colbert for that matter.
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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Well, yes, a lot of those things did happen. Most of them were wrong, and inexcusable.

    Again, however, to try and paint this as being something intrinsic to European dealings with the natives alone would be something of a mistake. Have you read about the atrocities Europeans committed against other Europeans during the Thirty Years War, for instance, or any of the other various rebellions and wars of religion which occurred between Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims in the same era that the European colonization of the Americas was taking place?

    To put it bluntly, they'll make your hair stand on end.

    This wasn't just true of Europeans either. The Native Americans were just as bad, if not worse, as was just about every other people on earth at the time.

    The simple fact of the matter is that it was a more brutal time in general, where, often violent, authoritarianism was the way of the world, and life was commonly regarded as being rather cheap. In that context, trying to differentiate things in terms of "right" and "wrong" through a modern cultural lens simply doesn't work.

    Frankly, there's no more sense in a modern American feeling "guilty" about their ancestors' treatment of the Native Americans, than there is in a modern Italian feeling guilty about his people's treatment of the French under the Roman Empire.

    These events were simply a product of the times in which they occurred. Those times are now in the past, where they should belong.



    It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

    Celebrate that, if nothing else.
    You've got me wrong: I don't actually have any desire for Americans to feel guilty about themselves, in fact quite the opposite. I believe that optimism and positivity are critical qualities in becoming a superior culture (among others, of course). The way I would put it is something like this, "In spite of past mistakes and tragedies, American civilization has continually found ways to better itself and become a leading example for democracy and the ethical treatment of other people." (or something like that -- feel free to send that on to Bob in Editing). What I can not tolerate is raising objectively terrible people up as heroes to emulate. We don't need to sugar coat our history in order to believe positively in ourselves, we just need to know that we can, and always have, figured out what was right and successfully fought for it (eventually).

    Anyway, point is, Columbus was a dick.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It is because of the actions of your forebearers that you are even here to feel guilty about them in the first place.

    Celebrate that, if nothing else.
    No ...I will not.
    I don't feel guilty.
    Columbus was scum and I have been glad to say so every October.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    You've got me wrong: I don't actually have any desire for Americans to feel guilty about themselves, in fact quite the opposite. I believe that optimism and positivity are critical qualities in becoming a superior culture (among others, of course). The way I would put it is something like this, "In spite of past mistakes and tragedies, American civilization has continually found ways to better itself and become a leading example for democracy and the ethical treatment of other people." (or something like that -- feel free to send that on to Bob in Editing). What I can not tolerate is raising objectively terrible people up as heroes to emulate. We don't need to sugar coat our history in order to believe positively in ourselves, we just need to know that we can, and always have, figured out what was right and successfully fought for it (eventually).

    Anyway, point is, Columbus was a dick.
    I agree with you on that. The guy was basically a common thug drunk on power, who tried to run the land he had been given like his own personal "Heart of Darkness."

    I have absolutely no problem with renaming the holiday for that exact reason.

    Again, I'd simply prefer that it be changed to something more along the lines of "Discovery Day," with indigenous peoples being given their own holiday, than having the European element thrown out entirely in favor of the natives.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I know and I was obviously being tongue-in-cheek.
    Even to me it was not obvious... and I am obviously the obvious fool here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    When Capt. Cook arrived on the coast of BC the natives there lived better, healthier, easier lives than the average crewman from Resolution.
    But... but we brought them civilization!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I agree with you on that. The guy was basically a common thug drunk on power, who tried to run the land he had been given like his own personal "Heart of Darkness."

    I have absolutely no problem with renaming the holiday for that exact reason.

    Again, I'd simply prefer that it be changed to something more along the lines of "Discovery Day," with indigenous peoples being given their own holiday, than having the European element thrown out entirely in favor of the natives.
    What about Bartolome de las Casas Day?

    Christopher Columbus was awful (but this other guy was not) - The Oatmeal

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    But... but we brought them civilization!
    It not exactly hard to live a "healthier, easier" life than some scurvy ridden sailor who's been stuffed into a leaky, undersized floating wooden box in the middle of the ocean for the last six to eight months with nothing but maggot ridden half-rotten 18th century military rations to eat.

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