Page 13 of 18 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 178

Thread: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

  1. #121
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,019

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Yes, and he's dead. And he's not celebrated for his slavery but for his accomplishments.
    What accomplishment? You seem to speak in generalities. He was the second or 3rd European to get to a continent where people were living on. What exactly did he accomplish? Spare me the romanticism. Columbus got lost, arrived on a continent where people were living on and declared it as Europe's property. The US eventually fought to get rid of his type and now here were are listening to you debating why we should celebrate the person who began the colonizing infrastructure that the US itself fought to get rid of.

    That's racist. So you think mongolians are not intelligent? You think they're not quite as good as the rest of us who are intelligent beings... you are a racist bastard aren't you?
    If they're celebrating a person who enslaved millions of people? They're definitely not smart. Spare me the faux outrage.

    Oh, so that makes it okay huh? Just because nobody here lives in Mongolia? What, history is not the same for everyone? Do you need to live in Mongolia to learn mongolian history? I think not.

    You're also nitpicking commentaries. Please reply in full.
    What is supposed to be okay? That you're fighting a strawman you yourself concocted? Nobody here is discussing whether Mongolians should celebrate a murderous Mongolian. What is being discussed is whether Americans should celebrate the arrival of a murderous European who never even set foot in North America.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  2. #122
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Good grief. I laughed at the way your argument has been reduced to: It happened, is that not a reason to celebrate it? No, it's not. Jewish culture today is the result of the genocides, inquisitions and expulsions. Is that not enough reason for them to celebrate them? That's how ridiculous your question is. No, it isn't. Celebrations entail a positive aspect to the event itself. Columbus Day is a celebration of the time a psychopathic European crew accidentally bumped into the continent and decided it belonged to Spain.

    Again, nobody is debating whether or not these events happened. Nobody is questioning whether some things wouldn't have happened or other thing happened. What is being questioned is whether we should be celebrating the arrival of a murderous group of Europeans who had nothing to do with the United States, it's eventual creation or its development since.

    Facts:

    A) Columbus wasn't the first European to reach the Americas.
    B) He didn't reach North America.
    C) He accidentally bumped into a few islands in the Caribbeans after half his crew nearly died of scurvy.
    D) He proceeded to murder people right and left on behalf of an ideology the US would stand against later on in history.

    So with all those facts on the table, I'm going to ask you to answer these questions:

    1. Why should the US celebrate the 2nd or 3rd contact Europeans made with the Americas be celebrated?
    2. Why should the beginning of the colonization period (which the US eventually fight against) be celebrated?
    3. Why should a sailor who literally had no clue where he was be celebrated?

    You can't seem to answer those questions. It's alright. Once you do, you'll realize how silly it is to celebrate him in the first place. Hey, I'm all for Leif Erikson Day. It's a pretty significant part of history. First known contact between Europeans and the Americas. But what is so special about Columbus? He didn't discover the Americas. There were people living here. He began the process of colonization. The US eventually fought to end that. He didn't know he'd reached a brand new continent. Insisted on telling people that the inhabitants in the Americans were Indians. So what exactly are we celebrating?
    As I've already pointed out, the long term impacts of the European discovery of the Americas ultimately were positive, in that they created the culture and civilization which presently flourishes throughout the Western Hemisphere.

    Without this event, you, quite literally, would not exist, and neither would I. None of the values or institutions our present culture holds dear would exist either.

    Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the European discovery, and subsequent colonization, of the Americas was a major turning point in world history. It was turning point which has ultimately worked out as being in the best interests of both the Americas and humanity in general.

    Is that not reason enough to celebrate it; if only for its positive impact on history, and not some of the more negative methods it utilized?

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    I myself still see Columbus as a great man. His was a great accomplishment opening the Americas to European discovery, only I believe that the day could be more inclusive. The day should be a celebration where two worlds came together, whether for the good or the bad. In the end, it paved the way for the ultimate goal of uniting the entire planet and it prepares the way for the next step in our common evolution. The day can be celebrated as one where all the people are recognized, especially those that were already living in the Americas.
    That's actually not a bad idea.

    I wouldn't be at all opposed to an "Americas Day," or something similar.

  3. #123
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,019

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    I enjoy that Rainman's argument now depends on "Look at how brave he was!" - Um, Columbus wasn't special. There are literally hundreds of explorers out there who traveled and got lost looking for India. The difference between him and other however is that:

    A) He lied to his crew because he literally didn't know where they were.
    B) Once he arrived on land and saw Natives, he called them Indians because again he didn't know where he was.
    C) He claimed the land as belonging to Spain and because the first colonizer. Something which the US would later rebuke on its territory and later on the second island he determined belonged to Spain (Cuba).

    Why are we celebrating a lost Italian who accidentally stumbled into the Americas and whose claims we'd later fight against?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #124
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,186
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I enjoy that Rainman's argument now depends on "Look at how brave he was!" - Um, Columbus wasn't special. There are literally hundreds of explorers out there who traveled and got lost looking for India. The difference between him and other however is that:

    A) He lied to his crew because he literally didn't know where they were.
    B) Once he arrived on land and saw Natives, he called them Indians because again he didn't know where he was.
    C) He claimed the land as belonging to Spain and because the first colonizer. Something which the US would later rebuke on its territory and later on the second island he determined belonged to Spain (Cuba).

    Why are we celebrating a lost Italian who accidentally stumbled into the Americas and whose claims we'd later fight against?
    You're focusing mostly on the negative aspects of a man. Nobody is the sum total of their errors, only. He was not all by himself responsible for the exploitation and annihilation of native cultures. Columbus had been arrested on accusations of tyranny and brutality toward the native peoples. Though he was released by King Ferdinand after six weeks in prison, he was denied most of the profits of his discoveries promised to him by Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, dying in pain with arthritis, impoverished and obscure at age 54.

    Columbus wasn't the first European to reach the Western Hemisphere, but his voyages directly initiated a permanent presence of Europeans in both North and South America. News of the success of his first voyage spread through Europe, setting the stage for an era of European settlements. Subsequently, John Cabot "discovered" Newfoundland around 1497 and paved the way for England's colonization of North America.

    Columbus wasn't a great humanitarian for even his own time, though he did pave the way for many other explorers and deserves at least some historical acknowledgement. It's not the man that's being celebrated, as much as the discovery of the route and trade winds that led to the country we now live.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  5. #125
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,019

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    As I've already pointed out, the long term impacts of the European discovery of the Americas ultimately were positive,
    You keep making things up and hoping nobody notices. Why?

    1. Europeans didn't discover the Americas. There were people living in them already.
    2. Whatever the long term impacts of European arrival on the Americas are, is irrelevant. They're not what is being celebrated. However, I wonder what other people we can celebrate with the same level of logic you've demonstrated in that argument:

    Americans: - "We can celebrate Stalin, because without him, the USSR would have never fallen in the late 80s!"
    Jews - "We can celebrate Hitler writing Mein Kempf because without it, Israel wouldn't have become a state!"
    Blacks - "We can celebrate slave owners, because without them we wouldn't have reached the Americas!"

    in that they created the culture and civilization which presently flourishes throughout the Western Hemisphere.
    I'm pretty sure we're no longer a conglomerate of imperial territories controlled by European nations. So no, they didn't create the civilization which presently flourishes in the US or the Americas. We haven't been part of European civilization for well over 200 years. So that argument fails on an even bigger level.

    Without this event, you, quite literally, would not exist, and neither would I. None of the values or institutions our present culture holds dear would exist either.

    Again, the simple fact of the matter is that the European discovery, and subsequent colonization, of the Americas was a major turning point in world history. It was turning point which has ultimately worked out as being in the best interests of both the Americas and humanity in general.

    Is that not reason enough to celebrate it; if only for its positive impact on history, and not some of the more negative methods it utilized?
    Good grief, this is the third time you make that ridiculously asinine argument. There is a long list of event without which none of us would exist without and we still don't celebrate them. We don't celebrate events base on whether later history would or wouldn't have happened. We don't celebrate the Roman empire conquering what would eventually become Spain, England and France. Without Spain, there wouldn't have been any funding for Columbus. We don't celebrate Constantine's conversion to Catholicism. Without that, Christianity wouldn't have reached as far as it did as early as it did and thus set the stage for the crusades once it met up with the growing power of Islam on the Middle East. We don't celebrate those events. Why? Why is it those events aren't celebrated even though without them, there would have never been the conditions necessary for Columbus to even think about traveling to Asia? So with all of that said, what have you tried to argue are the reasons Columbus Day should be celebrated?

    1. Get over it.

    Get over... what? An event which everyone acknowledges happened? Um alright.

    2. History has winners and losers.

    No kidding. I bet you it took a very hard look in the history books to realize that.

    3. It's part of history.

    No ****. So is everything else in a history book. That doesn't make it worthy of a celebration.

    4. You're racist!

    Funny. I don't agree with celebrating the accidental arrival of a murderous European who never reached North America, that makes me racist. You're getting desperate.

    5. Without it happening! You wouldn't be here!

    Um, what? There are literally millions of historical events big and small without which none of us would be here. We're not celebrating them all are we? Here's a small list. I bolded the events, so you won't get lost trying to determine how ridiculous your argument of "It happened! You're here because of it! That's a reason to celebrate it!" is.

    Without Spanish victory over the Moors, Columbus wouldn't have been funded by Isabela. Are we going to celebrate that event?
    Without Moorish conquest into Spain, the Castillians would have never fought a war with the Moors and Columbus wouldn't have gotten funding. Are we going to celebrate that event?
    Without Mohammed's conversion to Islam, the Moor's would have just been a group of disorganized pagan sheep herders who would have never gotten into Spain. Are we celebrating that event?

    Again, the point is that it happened and it led to this other stuff is not sufficient of a standard for why something should be celebrated. It's clear you can't even determine what Columbus did that was inherently positive. You can only point at the progression of history and say - well, the results were great and the civilization he created is like our own today! That's a silly standard to have because A) we no longer live in colonies B) we have repudiated through history any further attempts to colonise us and C) we literally have no direct relationship with Columbus' arrival to the Americas.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #126
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,019

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    You're focusing mostly on the negative aspects of a man. Nobody is the sum total of their errors, only. He was not all by himself responsible for the exploitation and annihilation of native cultures. Columbus had been arrested on accusations of tyranny and brutality toward the native peoples. Though he was released by King Ferdinand after six weeks in prison, he was denied most of the profits of his discoveries promised to him by Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, dying in pain with arthritis, impoverished and obscure at age 54.

    Columbus wasn't the first European to reach the Western Hemisphere, but his voyages directly initiated a permanent presence of Europeans in both North and South America. News of the success of his first voyage spread through Europe, setting the stage for an era of European settlements. Subsequently, John Cabot "discovered" Newfoundland around 1497 and paved the way for England's colonization of North America.

    Columbus wasn't a great humanitarian for even his own time, though he did pave the way for many other explorers and deserves at least some historical acknowledgement. It's not the man that's being celebrated, as much as the discovery of the route and trade winds that led to the country we now live.
    What romanticist crap. Summarizing your post:

    He stumbled into the Americas by accident (he had to lie to his own crew about it) and claimed to discover it even though there were people living on it.
    He was sent to jail for being too murderous even for the guys who'd later enslave the entire continent. (As you yourself stated)

    You're falling into the same trap as Gathomas. Believing that establishing a system or somehow altering history is enough for a person to be celebrated. That's nonsense. When that person is so devoid of any moral fiber that they were sent to jail by the guys who hired him in the first place, that's enough of a reason for them to not be celebrated. When their supposed achievements can only be validated by the actions which came later and they played no role in, that's another great reason for them to not be celebrated. Again, don't get me wrong. I'm all for celebrating days remembering G. Washington, Jefferson and the gang but celebrating murderous sailors who didn't even set foot in the US? Nonsense. Let Mongolians celebrate them. Again, he wasn't even an explorer. He wasn't looking for new land. He bumped into a continent he didn't even know was there!
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-08-14 at 04:55 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  7. #127
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    12-26-14 @ 02:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,032

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    What accomplishment? You seem to speak in generalities. He was the second or 3rd European to get to a continent where people were living on. What exactly did he accomplish? Spare me the romanticism. Columbus got lost, arrived on a continent where people were living on and declared it as Europe's property. The US eventually fought to get rid of his type and now here were are listening to you debating why we should celebrate the person who began the colonizing infrastructure that the US itself fought to get rid of.
    Europe's property? LoL. There was no single entity called "Europe" back then.


    If they're celebrating a person who enslaved millions of people? They're definitely not smart. Spare me the faux outrage.
    It's not faux outrage at all. You're just thinking too highly of yourself and don't think you're doing anything wrong. But you are wrong, just because people worship a certain historical figure that you disapprove of doesn't deprive them of intelligence.

    What is supposed to be okay? That you're fighting a strawman you yourself concocted? Nobody here is discussing whether Mongolians should celebrate a murderous Mongolian. What is being discussed is whether Americans should celebrate the arrival of a murderous European who never even set foot in North America.
    You are again, ignoring the majority of my comment.

    I'm done with you. You are too far up your back alley to accept any other narrative or any modification on any narrative. You know what you are? You are a cultist. When presented with reality you ignore large parts of it just to stick to what you think despite clearly being misinformed and poorly educated for such a topic.

  8. #128
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,019

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Europe's property? LoL. There was no single entity called "Europe" back then.
    Now you're just being nitpicky with words.

    It's not faux outrage at all. You're just thinking too highly of yourself and don't think you're doing anything wrong. But you are wrong, just because people worship a certain historical figure that you disapprove of doesn't deprive them of intelligence.
    Spare me. Nationalist leanings aren't a counter argument for why people shouldn't celebrate murderers. If anything, it's a sign of stupidity.

    You know what you are? You are a cultist. When presented with reality you ignore large parts of it just to stick to what you think despite clearly being misinformed and poorly educated for such a topic.
    Lmao, I'm a cultist. Says the guy wanting to celebrate the arrival of a murderous, lost European whose establishment of the colonial system the US would later fight against. Are you serious?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #129
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    1. Europeans didn't discover the Americas. There were people living in them already.
    Whatever culture once existed in the Americas is extinct now, and is therefore irrelevant. The culture which now exists in the Western hemisphere is overwhelmingly the result of European ideas and influence.

    2. Whatever the long term impacts of European arrival on the Americas are, is irrelevant. They're not what is being celebrated.
    How on Earth do you figure, dude?

    Again, without European colonization, NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE TODAY to even be talking about this in the first place.

    You owe literally everything in your cushy, democratic, first-world North American life to the fact of European colonization of the Americas and it's impacts.

    "2+2= Blue?"

    Americans: - "We can celebrate Stalin, because without him, the USSR would have never fallen in the late 80s!"
    Jews - "We can celebrate Hitler writing Mein Kempf because without it, Israel wouldn't have become a state!"
    Blacks - "We can celebrate slave owners, because without them we wouldn't have reached the Americas!"
    European colonization of the Americas was not purely negative.

    For Europeans, it was a world-changing, positive event. Hell! It was even a positive event for the natives who were smart enough to assimilate.

    I'm pretty sure we're no longer a conglomerate of imperial territories controlled by European nations. So no, they didn't create the civilization which presently flourishes in the US or the Americas. We haven't been part of European civilization for well over 200 years. So that argument fails on an even bigger level.
    The culture of the modern Western Hemisphere finds it points of origin in the European colonists who settled here. As such, it's culture is overwhelmingly "European" in general character.

    Good grief, this is the third time you make that ridiculously asinine argument. There is a long list of event without which none of us would exist without and we still don't celebrate them. We don't celebrate events base on whether later history would or wouldn't have happened. We don't celebrate the Roman empire conquering what would eventually become Spain, England and France. Without Spain, there wouldn't have been any funding for Columbus. We don't celebrate Constantine's conversion to Catholicism. Without that, Christianity wouldn't have reached as far as it did as early as it did and thus set the stage for the crusades once it met up with the growing power of Islam on the Middle East. We don't celebrate those events. Why? Why is it those events aren't celebrated even though without them, there would have never been the conditions necessary for Columbus to even think about traveling to Asia? So with all of that said, what have you tried to argue are the reasons Columbus Day should be celebrated?
    Who the Hell says we don't?

    Personally, I think the Roman Empire was a great thing. A lot of people agree. That's why it's constantly glorified in media and in history books.

    Being Catholic, I also celebrate Constantine's conversion to Christianity, as well as the Crusades.

    As to why they're not "officially" celebrated by the US government, they are simply too far removed from the history of the United States to be terribly relevant. That is not the case where Columbus' discovery of the New World is concerned.

    Anyone with even a lick of common sense can see it.

    The rest of your post is simply rehashing the same tired old spastic points you've repeated time and again. It will be ignored as such.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 10-08-14 at 05:11 AM.

  10. #130
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    12-26-14 @ 02:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,032

    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Now you're just being nitpicky with words.

    Spare me. Nationalist leanings aren't a counter argument for why people shouldn't celebrate murderers. If anything, it's a sign of stupidity.

    Lmao, I'm a cultist. Says the guy wanting to celebrate the arrival of a murderous, lost European whose establishment of the colonial system the US would later fight against. Are you serious?
    Yes, I am serious. You are a cultist.

    You accept no deviation from the narrative you've been taught/self-taught/indoctrinated in. I'm not even talking about accepting something else completely different, I'm talking about just accepting a deviation on the narrative you spin. You won't accept the fact that he was brave. You won't accept the fact that the natives were technologically backwards, almost stone-age like, and the realities of those times that the weak suffered what they must, as all people have when they faced a greater opponent... whether today you deem it just or not. Those were the times.

    You don't read or reply to my comments in full and cut out large parts of my comment in order to perpetrate your agenda of misinformation.

    And you keep using flash-words in your statements, supplementing substance with superficiality.

    You my friend, are a cultist in the cult of "I hate Columbus with Passion". You cannot judge history through modern lenses. You need to see things through the eyes of those times to gather knowledge and grow your mind. Otherwise, you're basically just talking ignorance painted in a thin coat of "enlightenment" that everyone, except those weak of mind, can see through.

    Your moral outrage signals the fact that you are a very limited man, of limited experience and very limited knowledge. And I pity you.

Page 13 of 18 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •