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Thread: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Are you just making it up as you go now and moving on to the next ridiculous red herring? Leif Erikson Day doesn't celebrate the beginning of any colonization period. Unlike Columbus day. That the people who created it were as ignorant in their opinion of what a discovery was as you are is not only fascinating it's outright funny.

    Of course you don't see a reason to stop celebrating the arrival of a murderous group of Europeans who established white supremacy on the continent for 500 years.

    In different colors all the usual rebuttals that are useless.

    First up! Get over it:Get over what? The fact that you're advocating celebrating the arrival of murderous colonizers? That's the only thing in question. Not whether something happened or not. It's been acknowledged that it happened. People are over it, what you haven't convinced anyone in this thread to do is celebrate the fact that it did.

    Second Rebuttal: History has winner and losers. No kidding. I bet you learned that wherever you were taught that "getting over it" is a convincing argument for celebrating the arrival of psychopathic colonizers. As far as I'm concerned, the Europeans arrived and decided to take over land which didn't belong to them. That's not exactly worth celebrating.

    Third bit of nonsense: It's part of our history! You can't tell us it's wrong to celebrate it. That's nice, what's next? Celebrating the My Lai massacre? What about allowing Muslims to celebrate 9/11? What shall Americans Muslims tell us 100 years from now if they decided to celebrate 9/11? The Armenian massacre? Oh alright, those were just short historical periods. Hm, alright how about we celebrate the expulsion of the Jews from Europe? That took a few 100 years. Again, stop me when you find an argument for why any period of a colonizing process should be celebrated.

    Forth Rebuttal: You're the racist one! Uh, no. I'm just not in favor of celebrating psychopaths and killers regardless of their race.
    Again, I'm sorry that you're apparently butt hurt over the fact that a bunch of people living almost half a millennia ago got conquered by a more advanced civilization. I'm also sorry that you've apparently allowed the bitterness by proxy you harbor over this to poison your view of the world.

    The simple fact of the matter, however, is that I don't care.

    I'm not going to be ashamed of my ancestors or the history which lead my country to the power and privilege it currently enjoys today simply to appease your misappropriated sense of vestigial grievance.

    I'd suggest that you try to live in the present, rather than dwelling in the past.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Are you just making it up as you go now and moving on to the next ridiculous red herring? Leif Erikson Day doesn't celebrate the beginning of any colonization period. Unlike Columbus day. That the people who created it were as ignorant in their opinion of what a discovery was as you are is not only fascinating it's outright funny.

    Of course you don't see a reason to stop celebrating the arrival of a murderous group of Europeans who established white supremacy on the continent for 500 years.

    In different colors all the usual rebuttals that are useless.

    First up! Get over it:Get over what? The fact that you're advocating celebrating the arrival of murderous colonizers? That's the only thing in question. Not whether something happened or not. It's been acknowledged that it happened. People are over it, what you haven't convinced anyone in this thread to do is celebrate the fact that it did.

    Second Rebuttal: History has winner and losers. No kidding. I bet you learned that wherever you were taught that "getting over it" is a convincing argument for celebrating the arrival of psychopathic colonizers. As far as I'm concerned, the Europeans arrived and decided to take over land which didn't belong to them. That's not exactly worth celebrating.

    Third bit of nonsense: It's part of our history! You can't tell us it's wrong to celebrate it. That's nice, what's next? Celebrating the My Lai massacre? What about allowing Muslims to celebrate 9/11? What shall Americans Muslims tell us 100 years from now if they decided to celebrate 9/11? The Armenian massacre? Oh alright, those were just short historical periods. Hm, alright how about we celebrate the expulsion of the Jews from Europe? That took a few 100 years. Again, stop me when you find an argument for why any period of a colonizing process should be celebrated.

    Forth Rebuttal: You're the racist one! Uh, no. I'm just not in favor of celebrating psychopaths and killers regardless of their race.

    Hmm. How about communists?
    If you are against celebrating anything that is smeared in any hint of controversy, then don't celebrate MLK because he was a communist. And communists are evil because they did a lot of evil things. Sure, you may not think MLK was evil but that doesn't matter. He is guilty by association. He belongs to a group that is generally evil.

    Do you know what Mongolians celebrate? Genghis Khan. They still call him their word for "ultimate ruler" or "supreme ruler". Nobody is telling them not to celebrate Genghis Khan because it's their right. He did right by them. Sure, it was because of the Mongol hordes that the black plague spread and killed millions including over half of Europeans the first time it came around and ofc, the black plague came again and again making significant casualties, but ok, nobody is going to the mongols and saying they are insensitive pricks.
    And that's just one example of many from all peoples.

    The reality is that until recently, and this is basically copy-pasting what i said just above.
    This is what I said just above.
    Until the recent history, all wars were accompanied by massive abuses and penalties done upon the conquered population by the conqueror. It is in fact only western civilization which today, and for the recent past, that doesn't indulge in this behavior and in fact, does quite the opposite, does a lot to relieve the populations that are occupied of many problems and worries. It is a testament to why the western world is not just different, but better and why our culture is not just different, but better.
    But until this very recent past, all other wars fought by all people on all places in the world, have resulted in the abuse and suffering of whatever actions the conquerors wanted to inflict. This is the reality.
    it is only after the establishment of the UN that the right to conquer was abolished. So technically, today, conquest doesn't give you dominion over territory, at least on paper. But until the UN, the right of conquest was a very real thing and everyone practiced it. Whether it was the natives of america killing one another for food or raping each other to wipe out entire tribes, whether it was the mongol hordes, european wars, muslim conquests, chinesse civil wars and expansions into vietnam, african slave wars, etc. Doesn't matter what.

    And to add another thing. No other civilization except western civilization accept responsibility and recognition of past misgivings. The chinesse don't acknowledge anything wrong they did in their past.
    The turks don't acknowledge the genocides on armenians or other peoples like the greek genocide and expulsion from anatolia, etc.
    The mongols aren't apologizing for genghis khan,
    The japanesse have been forced to admit their crimes during ww2 but they clearly don't like that, because they pay homige to their murderers in ww2 as the current PM did in Japan.
    And many more. The list goes on and on. IT is just the west that admits to whatever wrongdoings happend long time ago.

    And that, buddy, is just another reason as to why the west is better and why all the people who hate the west are idiots. Especially if you live in the west. It is the only society that ever progresses and becomes better than it was.
    Last edited by Rainman05; 10-08-14 at 03:25 AM.

  3. #113
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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Again, I'm sorry that you're apparently butt hurt over the fact that a bunch of people living almost half a millennia ago got conquered by a more advanced civilization,
    This is the second time you seem to confuse acknowledgement of a fact with celebrating the fact. I'm well aware Europeans showed up and colonized the land and enslaved many of those living on it. I'm just convinced it's worth celebrating and you can't seem to come up with a reasonable argument as to why we should celebrate colonization.

    and that you've allowed the bitterness by proxy you harbor over this to poison your view of the world. The simple fact of the matter, however, is that I don't care.
    Nobody asked about your feelings on the matter. What has been asked is: Why should the beginning of colonization be celebrated? It's not a holiday which anyone living today deals with on a personal level. It's not a celebration of a positive part of history. It's not even a celebration related to the US in any manner as Columbus didn't set foot on North American soil. It's essentially celebrating the arrival of a murderous European who took land that wasn't his. Why is it worth celebrating?

    I'm not going to be ashamed of my ancestors or the history which lead my country to the greatest it wields today simply to appease your misappropriated sense of vestigial grievance.
    Your ancestors didn't have anything to do with Columbus. He never reached North America. He's no more an ancestor of yours than Queen Sheeba is an ancestor of mine.

    I'd suggest that you try to live in the present, rather than the past.
    Says the guy advocating the celebration of people who weren't related to him, didn't reach North America and claimed to discover land that was inhabited a few thousand years before they arrived.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is the second time you seem to confuse acknowledgement of a fact with celebrating the fact. I'm well aware Europeans showed up and colonized the land and enslaved many of those living on it. I'm just convinced it's worth celebrating and you can't seem to come up with a reasonable argument as to why we should celebrate colonization.

    Nobody asked about your feelings on the matter. What has been asked is: Why should the beginning of colonization be celebrated? It's not a holiday which anyone living today deals with on a personal level. It's not a celebration of a positive part of history. It's not even a celebration related to the US in any manner as Columbus didn't set foot on North American soil. It's essentially celebrating the arrival of a murderous European who took land that wasn't his. Why is it worth celebrating?

    Your ancestors didn't have anything to do with Columbus. He never reached North America. He's no more an ancestor of yours than Queen Sheeba is an ancestor of mine.

    Says the guy advocating the celebration of people who weren't related to him, didn't reach North America and claimed to discover land that was inhabited a few thousand years before they arrived.
    Look at the world around you. Look at the computer you're presently posting from.

    Hell, man! Look at yourself! You're a mixture of African, Native American, and Caucasian European genetic lineages.

    Do you think any of that would exist if it were not for European colonization of the Americas?

    To say the least, it's unlikely.

    At the end of the day, you are just as much a product of the world that colonization created as I am.

    Is that not reason enough to "celebrate" the event in question, or, at the very least, its impacts?

  5. #115
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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Hmm. How about communists?
    How about them? What do we celebrate

    If you are against celebrating anything that is smeared in any hint of controversy, then don't celebrate MLK because he was a communist. And communists are evil because they did a lot of evil things. Sure, you may not think MLK was evil but that doesn't matter. He is guilty by association. He belongs to a group that is generally evil.
    Columbus isn't guilty by your laughable association. He's guilty by action:

    History Tells Us That Columbus Was A Slave Trader - Philly.com

    Unfortunately, although we would all like to believe rosy self-serving scenarios, a little research shows that "slave trader" is about the nicest thing we can say about this guy. Columbus was not only the first American slave trader but a mass murderer and torturer of peaceful people, motivated by European-style greed. One of your readers, Jack Fallon, points out quite correctly (Letters, Feb. 7) that Columbus brought Christianity to the new world, although he draws the wrong conclusion if he thinks it had anything to do with causing the slave trade to become a thing of the past.

    ...

    To the contrary, Columbus's 1495 expedition sent 500 Arawak natives to Spain as slaves and curiosities (200 of whom perished enroute) and then wrote, ''Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold." He proceeded to do just that, though he may have found it economically unfeasible, as not enough slaves survived the voyages. He also enslaved the native Arawaks in their own homeland, hunting them down with dogs, cutting off their hands, bleeding, burning and working them to death, all in search of gold for his royal sponsors.

    The genocide initiated by Columbus and his men, who often sliced off pieces of Indian flesh to test the sharpness of their blades, resulted in the total decimation of the peaceful Arawaks in a few short years, according to the journal of a priest, Bartolome de las Casas.
    Do you know what Mongolians celebrate? Genghis Khan.
    Nobody ever said they were intelligent, people. However, it's no different than celebrating Stalin. A misguided attempt at revising and whitewashing it.

    They still call him their word for "ultimate ruler" or "supreme ruler". Nobody is telling them not to celebrate Genghis Khan because it's their right.
    Nobody here lives in Mongolia. Hell, bring us some Mongolians so I can explain to them why celebrating a Mongolian mass murderer is as stupid as celebrating an European mass murderer. As for the rest of your post, it's nonsense. Irrelevant. I don't live in Mongolia and I don't have an opinion on whether Mongolians should celebrate murderers. I know I'm not in favor of it and apparently neither are the people of Seattle.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How about them? What do we celebrate

    Columbus isn't guilty by your laughable association. He's guilty by action:

    History Tells Us That Columbus Was A Slave Trader - Philly.com
    I don't believe that anyone here suggested that Columbus was someone to be admired or emulated in the first place.

    It is the European discovery of the Americas in general which is being celebrated here more than the man.

    Nobody ever said they were intelligent, people. However, it's no different than celebrating Stalin. A misguided attempt at revising and whitewashing it.

    Nobody here lives in Mongolia. Hell, bring us some Mongolians so I can explain to them why celebrating a Mongolian mass murderer is as stupid as celebrating an European mass murderer. As for the rest of your post, it's nonsense. Irrelevant. I don't live in Mongolia and I don't have an opinion on whether Mongolians should celebrate murderers. I know I'm not in favor of it and apparently neither are the people of Seattle.
    Would you suggest that we forgo honoring George Washington, F.D.R, Dwight D. Eisenhower, or George Patton simply because of all the unnecessary deaths and atrocities for which they were responsible?

    Has it occurred to you that actions which are negative for some groups are positive for others?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 10-08-14 at 03:47 AM.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How about them? What do we celebrate

    Columbus isn't guilty by your laughable association. He's guilty by action:

    History Tells Us That Columbus Was A Slave Trader - Philly.com
    Yes, and he's dead. And he's not celebrated for his slavery but for his accomplishments.
    Are you more brave than he was? Did you go into the great unknown because you have faith you'll end up where you think you will? In his case that was India but regardless, still land within a certain time limit so that they don't die out at sea.
    He was a braver man than most today.

    It's not his fault the people he encountered weren't able to defend themselves. If the native americans would have built a great civilization on par with that of Europe or not even that, just good enough to not be able to be subdued so easily, the world would be a different place. but they didn't. They were in the stone age or a bit better off than that. And as I said, the right of conquest was a real thing back then until the West instituted the UN that at least on paper, stands against the right to rule by conquest.

    Nobody ever said they were intelligent, people. However, it's no different than celebrating Stalin. A misguided attempt at revising and whitewashing it.
    That's racist. So you think mongolians are not intelligent? You think they're not quite as good as the rest of us who are intelligent beings... you are a racist bastard aren't you?
    Nobody here lives in Mongolia. Hell, bring us some Mongolians so I can explain to them why celebrating a Mongolian mass murderer is as stupid as celebrating an European mass murderer. As for the rest of your post, it's nonsense. Irrelevant. I don't live in Mongolia and I don't have an opinion on whether Mongolians should celebrate murderers. I know I'm not in favor of it and apparently neither are the people of Seattle.
    Oh, so that makes it okay huh? Just because nobody here lives in Mongolia? What, history is not the same for everyone? Do you need to live in Mongolia to learn mongolian history? I think not.

    You're also nitpicking commentaries. Please reply in full.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I don't believe that anyone here suggested that Columbus was someone to be admired or emulated.

    It is the European discovery of the Americas in general which is being celebrated here more than the man.



    Would you suggest that we forgo honoring George Washington, F.D.R, Dwight D. Eisenhower, or George Patton simply because of all the unnecessary deaths and atrocities for which they were responsible?

    Has it occurred to you that actions which are negative for some groups are positive for others?
    That way we should not celebrate anyone except for people like Nicola Tesla but you can make a case against him too... his success lead to electrocutions and people died. And people used electricity, so his discover (invention) to do evil... so his legacy is warfare on an industrial level... hmmm... well... sucks. I love Nicola Tesla but he's out.
    We can celebrate Bill Gates... but... well... he did do corporate sabotage against some companies so I guess he's out. Doesn't matter he is helping feed people in africa and teaching the agriculture and getting rid of malaria, he sabotaged some companies and that means he did negative things for his own personal gain and that rules him out.

    Seems like we can't celebrate anyone. no, we can celebrate the deadbeats who never accomplish in their lives and who never bother anyone. Oh boy....

    And we also can't do anything in our lives for fear of causing offense or bothering someone or causing some negativity on others. From now on lets all stay inside our houses and never do anything. Ever. Just... stay... inside the house...

  9. #119
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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    I myself still see Columbus as a great man. His was a great accomplishment opening the Americas to European discovery, only I believe that the day could be more inclusive. The day should be a celebration where two worlds came together, whether for the good or the bad. In the end, it paved the way for the ultimate goal of uniting the entire planet and it prepares the way for the next step in our common evolution. The day can be celebrated as one where all the people are recognized, especially those that were already living in the Americas.

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    Re: Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoplesí Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Look at the world around you. Look at the computer you're presently posting from.

    Hell, man! Look at yourself! You're a mixture of African, Native American, and Caucasian European genetic lineages.

    Do you think any of it would exist if it were not for European colonization of the Americas?

    At the end of the day, you are just as much a product of the world that colonization created as I am.

    Is that not reason enough to celebrate it?
    Good grief. I laughed at the way your argument has been reduced to: It happened, is that not a reason to celebrate it? No, it's not. Jewish culture today is the result of the genocides, inquisitions and expulsions. Is that not enough reason for them to celebrate them? That's how ridiculous your question is. No, it isn't. Celebrations entail a positive aspect to the event itself. Columbus Day is a celebration of the time a psychopathic European crew accidentally bumped into the continent and decided it belonged to Spain.

    Again, nobody is debating whether or not these events happened. Nobody is questioning whether some things wouldn't have happened or other thing happened. What is being questioned is whether we should be celebrating the arrival of a murderous group of Europeans who had nothing to do with the United States, it's eventual creation or its development since.

    Facts:

    A) Columbus wasn't the first European to reach the Americas.
    B) He didn't reach North America.
    C) He accidentally bumped into a few islands in the Caribbeans after half his crew nearly died of scurvy.
    D) He proceeded to murder people right and left on behalf of an ideology the US would stand against later on in history.

    So with all those facts on the table, I'm going to ask you to answer these questions:

    1. Why should the US celebrate the 2nd or 3rd contact Europeans made with the Americas be celebrated?
    2. Why should the beginning of the colonization period (which the US eventually fight against) be celebrated?
    3. Why should a sailor who literally had no clue where he was be celebrated?

    You can't seem to answer those questions. It's alright. Once you do, you'll realize how silly it is to celebrate him in the first place. Hey, I'm all for Leif Erikson Day. It's a pretty significant part of history. First known contact between Europeans and the Americas. But what is so special about Columbus? He didn't discover the Americas. There were people living here. He began the process of colonization. The US eventually fought to end that. He didn't know he'd reached a brand new continent. Insisted on telling people that the inhabitants in the Americans were Indians. So what exactly are we celebrating?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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