Page 88 of 88 FirstFirst ... 3878868788
Results 871 to 880 of 880

Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

  1. #871
    Guru
    Lakryte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    06-02-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,982

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why would you not trust someone that you just married, just made your closest next of kin? Why would they not have your best interests at heart? If you think they don't, there are ways to protect yourself, but most people trust their spouse to keep their best interests in mind.

    I still have no idea what you are going off on. You are free to name someone else, besides who the government recognizes as your closest next of kin as your representative when you cannot speak for yourself. Those private methods are already available.

    And this thread is about marriage not next of kin. Marriage establishes a next of kin for two people (those getting married) but it isn't the only way to do this. Spouse is your closest next of kin, even if you have paperwork that says that someone else gets to do something for you that your spouse would be able to do automatically sans such legal paperwork, and that paperwork, which represents your most current wishes, trumps even that spousal connection.
    Why do people get prenups? The why isn't really important. Maybe someone feels their marriage is going south, and worries the spouse wont have their best interest in mind if they were to get sick. They may not want a full divorce just to define someone else as next of kin. Perhaps they will reestablish their spouse as next of kin at a later date, when the marital conflict is resolved. The point is that marriage is not necessary for next of kin to be established, but the United States does not allow people to freely choose their next of kin.

    In the United States, you are not free to name anyone you want as next of kin. You can sign a healthcare proxy, but the two are not the same. If I wanted my boyfriend to be my next of kin, for example, under U.S. law too bad. I could not establish him as such. This is one of the reasons bans on same-sex marriage have been so problematic. Imagine a gay man whose family has abandoned him (obviously not having his best interests in mind) but who has a loving partner of 20 years. Because he cannot marry his partner, his hateful family members will be his next of kin. The U.S. system does not allow people to establish next of kin freely. You are mistaken that we have that right in this country.

    My point was that it is completely possible for next of kin to be established by a private contract, but the United States does not allow this. I was responding directly to a poster who said that establishing next of kin outside of marriage was "impossible." I have proved this to be inaccurate by pointing to countries where this is in fact done, although a basic understanding of contracts makes it clear that the only real barrier to free establishment of next of kin is the government itself.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  2. #872
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,714

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Why do people get prenups? The why isn't really important. Maybe someone feels their marriage is going south,.........
    Prenups occur before marriage.

    Has nothing to do with establishing next of kin, but instead, protection of assets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #873
    Guru
    Lakryte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    06-02-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,982

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Prenups occur before marriage.

    Has nothing to do with establishing next of kin, but instead, protection of assets.
    No kidding. I was comparing the irrelevance of the question asked to me with another irrelevant question.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  4. #874
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Why do people get prenups? The why isn't really important. Maybe someone feels their marriage is going south, and worries the spouse wont have their best interest in mind if they were to get sick. They may not want a full divorce just to define someone else as next of kin. Perhaps they will reestablish their spouse as next of kin at a later date, when the marital conflict is resolved. The point is that marriage is not necessary for next of kin to be established, but the United States does not allow people to freely choose their next of kin.

    In the United States, you are not free to name anyone you want as next of kin. You can sign a healthcare proxy, but the two are not the same. If I wanted my boyfriend to be my next of kin, for example, under U.S. law too bad. I could not establish him as such. This is one of the reasons bans on same-sex marriage have been so problematic. Imagine a gay man whose family has abandoned him (obviously not having his best interests in mind) but who has a loving partner of 20 years. Because he cannot marry his partner, his hateful family members will be his next of kin. The U.S. system does not allow people to establish next of kin freely. You are mistaken that we have that right in this country.

    My point was that it is completely possible for next of kin to be established by a private contract, but the United States does not allow this. I was responding directly to a poster who said that establishing next of kin outside of marriage was "impossible." I have proved this to be inaccurate by pointing to countries where this is in fact done, although a basic understanding of contracts makes it clear that the only real barrier to free establishment of next of kin is the government itself.
    Most people don't get prenups. The majority of those who get prenups have a huge income disparity going into the marriage and are concerned about their assets if the relationship should end, which is a possibility for any relationship.

    You don't need a divorce to declare someone else in charge of your important decisions. It just takes some extra paperwork. I'm not sure you truly understand how this works.

    Yes, the US does allow people to choose their next of kin to an extent. Those things you are talking about, have nothing to do with next of kin, and everything to do with personal legal affairs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #875
    Guru
    Lakryte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    06-02-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,982

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Most people don't get prenups. The majority of those who get prenups have a huge income disparity going into the marriage and are concerned about their assets if the relationship should end, which is a possibility for any relationship.
    Most people would keep their spouse as next of kin. That isn't relevant.

    You don't need a divorce to declare someone else in charge of your important decisions. It just takes some extra paperwork. I'm not sure you truly understand how this works.
    .
    You cannot declare anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. Your understanding of how it works is incorrect.

    Yes, the US does allow people to choose their next of kin to an extent. Those things you are talking about, have nothing to do with next of kin, and everything to do with personal legal affairs.
    Please describe "the extent" you are referring to. I am sorry, but you are simply mistaken. You can not choose anyone to be your next of kin in the United States. If so, please demonstrate how you would make your best friend with whom you have no blood relation to your next of kin.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  6. #876
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Most people would keep their spouse as next of kin. That isn't relevant.
    .
    You cannot declare anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. Your understanding of how it works is incorrect.

    Please describe "the extent" you are referring to. I am sorry, but you are simply mistaken. You can not choose anyone to be your next of kin in the United States. If so, please demonstrate how you would make your best friend with whom you have no blood relation to your next of kin.
    You are confusing "next of kin" with a person who makes decisions for you. You can declare someone besides your spouse as your medical decision maker. You can make a will that specifically states that someone besides your spouse gets certain things (dependent on whether those "things" are considered joint property or not) or is able to make certain decisions for you. And that person does not have to be legally related to you.

    Even in the UK, the next of kin legally that they have only deals with medical decision making, not everything next of kin deals with everywhere or even just legally. It doesn't work that way, and likely never will.

    What other things that deal with next of kin status are you looking to gain?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #877
    Guru
    Lakryte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    06-02-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,982

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are confusing "next of kin" with a person who makes decisions for you. You can declare someone besides your spouse as your medical decision maker. You can make a will that specifically states that someone besides your spouse gets certain things (dependent on whether those "things" are considered joint property or not) or is able to make certain decisions for you. And that person does not have to be legally related to you.

    Even in the UK, the next of kin legally that they have only deals with medical decision making, not everything next of kin deals with everywhere or even just legally. It doesn't work that way, and likely never will.

    What other things that deal with next of kin status are you looking to gain?
    I'm not confusing anything. A person's next of kin is the person who makes medical decisions for them in the event that they cannot. That is just one of the many benefits and responsibilities of being next of kin. Rights regarding inheritance (in absence of a will), medical decision making powers, and funeral arrangement powers are examples of legal authority given to a person's next of kin, to name the most well known.

    The fact is that you cannot declare anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. If your best friend is the person you trust to be your next of kin, the law will not allow you to declare your best friend as next of kin. Your next of kin must be someone who is closely related to you or who is your spouse, and there is a set order to who is given next of kin privileges. For someone with bad family relationships but trustworthy friends, the best next of kin is a friend, not a blood relative. But in the United States, the friend will never be next of kin. That is not the best way of doing things.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  8. #878
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I'm not confusing anything. A person's next of kin is the person who makes medical decisions for them in the event that they cannot. That is just one of the many benefits and responsibilities of being next of kin. Rights regarding inheritance (in absence of a will), medical decision making powers, and funeral arrangement powers are examples of legal authority given to a person's next of kin, to name the most well known.

    The fact is that you cannot declare anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. If your best friend is the person you trust to be your next of kin, the law will not allow you to declare your best friend as next of kin. Your next of kin must be someone who is closely related to you or who is your spouse, and there is a set order to who is given next of kin privileges. For someone with bad family relationships but trustworthy friends, the best next of kin is a friend, not a blood relative. But in the United States, the friend will never be next of kin. That is not the best way of doing things.
    A person's next of kin may not be the one who makes certain decisions for them though if there is other legal paperwork saying that someone else besides the next of kin will make those decisions. You can designate your best friend to make legal decisions for you, medical and end of life decisions, with legal documentation that expresses your wishes for this to happen. It trumps family kinship recognized by the state. My point has always been that it requires paperwork for the next of kin or the naming of a legal decision maker. And yes, that can be your best friend. There are some things that your best friend would not be entitled to though, under the law, such as suing in the event of a wrongful death or being covered by the FMLA, but the legal stuff they can do. And if really needed, you can adopt adults.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #879
    Guru
    Lakryte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    06-02-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,982

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    A person's next of kin may not be the one who makes certain decisions for them though if there is other legal paperwork saying that someone else besides the next of kin will make those decisions. You can designate your best friend to make legal decisions for you, medical and end of life decisions, with legal documentation that expresses your wishes for this to happen. It trumps family kinship recognized by the state. My point has always been that it requires paperwork for the next of kin or the naming of a legal decision maker. And yes, that can be your best friend. There are some things that your best friend would not be entitled to though, under the law, such as suing in the event of a wrongful death or being covered by the FMLA, but the legal stuff they can do. And if really needed, you can adopt adults.
    I find it odd you are bringing up the ability to have a friend make medical decisions for you (a healthcare proxy) when you previously pointed out that a healthcare proxy was not the same as next of kin.

    The fact remains that you cannot define anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. Period. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this, but that is a fact. At this point this discussion is completely pointless, so I won't be replying again.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  10. #880
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I find it odd you are bringing up the ability to have a friend make medical decisions for you (a healthcare proxy) when you previously pointed out that a healthcare proxy was not the same as next of kin.

    The fact remains that you cannot define anyone you want as next of kin in the United States. Period. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this, but that is a fact. At this point this discussion is completely pointless, so I won't be replying again.
    It isn't the same, but everything you have discussed so far, is about medical proxy or other things such at that. It would be quite different if you were discussing, for example, something that spouses get that other next of kin do not, besides perhaps minor children, such as dependent recognition or something like that. Even next of kin are treated differently according to what their relationship is to the person and what the person means, financially/support speaking, to the person.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

Page 88 of 88 FirstFirst ... 3878868788

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •