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Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    No, I was not attempting to nor did I ever equate next of kin with spouse. You did not ask what document establishes "the full range of spousal benefits" one would get via a marriage license. You asked what document establishes "a legal next of kin relationship." And the correct answer to something that could possibly do that is a simple contract, such as those that exist in the UK. If anyone was conflating next of kin with a spouse, it was you.

    No, I asked "I'm asking what other documents establish a legal next of kin relationship with the same scope currently existing for a $35.00 marriage license that is recognized and enforceable in all 50 states?" and your response was "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice."

    Would you like me (in the morning since I'm going to bed) link to the post where I asked the question exactly as shown above an where you said "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice"?



    >>>>

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But not without the government still getting involved.
    Yes, in enforcement, like all private contracts. I have stated this numerous times already, and I really don't understand why you keep bringing that up as if it changes anything. There is nothing to figure out; it seems like you are trying to read between the lines to find something to argue against. Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. That's all there is to it. Spousal privileges do not equal legal kinship.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    No, I asked "I'm asking what other documents establish a legal next of kin relationship with the same scope currently existing for a $35.00 marriage license that is recognized and enforceable in all 50 states?" and your response was "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice."

    Would you like me (in the morning since I'm going to bed) link to the post where I asked the question exactly as shown above an where you said "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice"?



    >>>>
    Very good, that is what you asked. Let me link you to your own post. Post #455 is where you said this:
    "What other document establishes legal kinship for the myriad of laws that exist and do so for the $35.00 of a Civil Marriage license?"

    And your quote comes form #460.

    You did not ask what document establishes "the full range of spousal benefits" one would get via a marriage license. Period. You asked what document could establish next of kin one would get via a marriage license. The next of kin portion of the marriage license simply puts the spouse at the top of the next of kin hierarchy. The same effect can be achieved with a simple contract. I am not sure what the confusion is on your part.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Yes, in enforcement, like all private contracts. I have stated this numerous times already, and I really don't understand why you keep bringing that up as if it changes anything. There is nothing to figure out; it seems like you are trying to read between the lines to find something to argue against. Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. That's all there is to it. Spousal privileges do not equal legal kinship.
    No. Not just in enforcement. The government sets up an hierarchy for next of kin. Being considered someone's legal next of kin grants certain legal benefits, such as being covered for under Family Leave Act and even being restricted when it comes to certain circumstances (such as when asked about during a job if anyone you are related to works there or in a certain area, actually know this to be true, since my mother in law and I could not work at the same place, but my sister and my mother in law could because legally, they are not kin, but I am legal kin to both of them).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It is necessary to ensure that people are not trying to a) defraud the government or others that may give compensation of some sort for being a certain level of next of kin or to ensure b) that someone is not wrongfully trying to set themselves up as someone else's next of kin through fraud or by taking advantage of that person.

    It is not that easy. You definitely do not understand how complicated and full of loopholes American law is.
    Should every private contract require a court case before it is signed and valid? I you believe so, then business as we know it would come to a halt. If someone pays me to make them my next of kin, so what? That is my choice to make. No fraud is necessarily involved with that. You don't need preemptive court cases to protect against fraud, either.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. Not just in enforcement. The government sets up an hierarchy for next of kin. Being considered someone's legal next of kin grants certain legal benefits, such as being covered for under Family Leave Act and even being restricted when it comes to certain circumstances (such as when asked about during a job if anyone you are related to works there or in a certain area, actually know this to be true, since my mother in law and I could not work at the same place, but my sister and my mother in law could because legally, they are not kin, but I am legal kin to both of them).
    Yes, just in enforcement. When the government provides coverage under the Family Leave Act, they are enforcing the next of kin contract by ensuring the next of kin is given the agreed to privileges (or as you say, restrictions in some cases).
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Should every private contract require a court case before it is signed and valid? I you believe so, then business as we know it would come to a halt. If someone pays me to make them my next of kin, so what? That is my choice to make. No fraud is necessarily involved with that. You don't need preemptive court cases to protect against fraud, either.
    We are not talking about merely a private contract here. This is an agreement to be a certain level of next of kin.

    Again, you really need to get some knowledge about how our next of kin laws work, and in general how our legal system works. It is very complicated, due mainly to avoid having people being taken advantage of. It simply isn't as simple as you would like it to be.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Yes, just in enforcement. When the government provides coverage under the Family Leave Act, they are enforcing the next of kin contract by ensuring the next of kin is given the agreed to privileges (or as you say, restrictions in some cases).
    They are given that privilege. It isn't in the contract. It is merely a law.

    In fact, tell us exactly what form of next of kin this document you wish to establish would make people? Where do they fit in? How should laws change to reflect this? Why?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We are not talking about merely a private contract here. This is an agreement to be a certain level of next of kin.

    Again, you really need to get some knowledge about how our next of kin laws work, and in general how our legal system works. It is very complicated, due mainly to avoid having people being taken advantage of. It simply isn't as simple as you would like it to be.
    You're not getting my point. I am talking about a better way of doing things, and used the UK as an example. Establishing the next of kin with a simple contract gives people the most free choice in selecting people they trust to look out for their best interest. U.S. law assumes closest relatives are best suited for this, but the reality is that this is not necessarily the case. There is nothing wrong with having laws that establish a default next of kin in the absence of a written contract stating otherwise, but establishing a next of kin that overrides the default can be as simple as a private contract.

    For example, the government would ask this question: Does this individual have a next of kin contract? If yes, enforce that. If not, enforce the government-defined next of kin hierarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They are given that privilege. It isn't in the contract. It is merely a law.

    In fact, tell us exactly what form of next of kin this document you wish to establish would make people? Where do they fit in? How should laws change to reflect this? Why?
    That's right. And who gets the privilege is defined by who the next of kin is, which can easily be established with a private contract if allowed by the government (as in the UK). Any law that references "next of kin" would look to the person established by the private contract as "next of kin."
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    You're not getting my point. I am talking about a better way of doing things, and used the UK as an example. Establishing the next of kin with a simple contract gives people the most free choice in selecting people they trust to look out for their best interest. U.S. law assumes closest relatives are best suited for this, but the reality is that this is not necessarily the case. There is nothing wrong with having laws that establish a default next of kin in the absence of a written contract stating otherwise, but establishing a next of kin that overrides the default can be as simple as a private contract.

    For example, the government would ask this question: Does this individual have a next of kin contract? If yes, enforce that. If not, enforce the government-defined next of kin hierarchy.

    That's right. And who gets the privilege is defined by who the next of kin is, which can easily be established with a private contract if allowed by the government (as in the UK). Any law that references "next of kin" would look to the person established by the private contract as "next of kin."
    Why would you think it was "better" just because the government isn't involved in the actual paperwork? There is no proof that the UK does it that much differently than we do. Show exactly how they do it that is "better". They still have marriage, still have birth certificates, right? Issued by or at least kept by the government? So then they really just added something else that is very similar to our adoption of adults.

    No, they just cannot be easily established by a private contract, not as easily as we currently establish our legal kinships via the government, and you have yet to prove or even give evidence otherwise. So far, you have really only shown that the UK has different laws than the US when it comes to next of kin, although in reality, that is only partially true.

    Now, I think I may know where the confusion lies here (although it could be something else). I know that I say that legal marriage establishes a legal kinship, legal relationship, which it does, of spouses. It isn't a generic legal kinship relationship though. It establishes a specific legal kinship that comes with specific rights, responsibilities, benefits, and privileges. It is just like birth certificates, adoption records, and in some limited cases court orders/rulings establish the specific kinships of parent and child for people. These too come with specific benefits, privileges, and some responsibilities. Those specific kinships are best established via the government since the government is where those specific benefits, privileges, rights, and responsibilities come from. By law, those kinships have to be recognized in at least some cases, particularly in cases like employment and anti-discrimination laws or insurance and anti-discrimination laws. For example, if an employee has someone listed as their child in their employment records, and gets insurance through their company, then the company/insurance company must give benefits to that child if they give family benefits, so long as the child is legally the child of the employee. However, a person cannot simply claim someone as their child. An uncle cannot claim that their nephew or niece is their child, despite being legally kin to them, just to get employee health benefits for the child, unless the uncle is the legal guardian of the child (although that is a different claim). A neighbor cannot simply write down a child's name on a card or in a private contract and expect to have that other person's child covered under their health benefits just because they are claiming them as "kin".

    Next of kin in the UK isn't even used as you seem to think it is. It is for those specific situations when there isn't someone else a person has that they want to have as their specific next of kin. And it is only really for medical purposes. It isn't legal recognition. It is very much like me listing who I wish to have notified on my medical paperwork, which is something I choose and can be someone besides my husband (in fact, the paperwork I just recently filled out at my doctor's office asked specifically if I wanted to inform my spouse of the results, then asked if there was anyone else I would like informed, nothing says that the spouse has to be the next of kin for medical reasons nor that it can't be someone else).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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