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Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    There you go again making no sense at all. I really don't think you understand this issue at all, with all due respect. Nobody is advocating that a next of kin contract replace marriage licenses. That doesn't even make sense. The argument, as I have stated several times quite specifically and you should know by now, is that legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. Such a contract does not require a lawyer to be paid a single cent.


    Establishing a next of kin would require one or two lines of writing maximum. You can find free examples of such contracts online. Next of kin is a term that has a legal meaning in and of itself in the united states. Thus you do not need to explain what the term means. You just say. "For all purposes, X is the next of kin of Y." If you want something more complicated than that, then sure, hire a lawyer. But most people will not need one for something so simple. The law already exists that defines the benefits and responsibilities of a next of kin, the only question needing answering is who that is to be.
    No, it is not that easy. You must include socials and/or other info that specifically identifies exactly who each person is, and specifics for where that person falls when it comes to the hierarchy of next of kin. Are they each the other's closest next of kin or simply related? Are they above or below siblings, parents, cousins, spouses, who?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I'm not talking about a next of kin contract replacing marriage, so no I have not established such nor do I need to. Again you address a strawman argument. Let me reiterate yet again the simple point I am making.

    Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document.

    The claim is not that hard to understand.

    Then I'm confused. If the intend is not to replace Civil Marriage Licenses with non-governmental next-of-kin forms but then not having that form replace marriage, then what is the use?

    Remember "next of kin" <> Spouse, and since you said you aren't looking to replace marriage - then there would still be spouses as a separate legal entity.

    While a spouse is next of kin, that does not mean that next of kin can function as a spouse. I gave some specific examples before concerning Estate Tax and Home Sale Property Exemption where ONLY a Spouse (not a next of kin) qualified under the law. There are many, many more. For example when I was in the military during the period I was unmarried - my parents were my next of kin. I could draw up documents and designate a non-releative as "next of kin". However those people would not have been eligible for Spousal privileges such as relocation to a new duty station, medical/health care treatment, command sponsorship for foreign travel. Another is Social Security Survivor payments. A Spouse is eligible to receive either their own SS rate or the rate of a deceased spouse, which ever is greater as long as they have been married a required number of contributory quarters. A "next of kin" is not eligible for that.



    >>>>

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The UK are not us, nor did they do away with marriage. They simply have an additional way for people to become next of kin, but in reality I doubt it honestly covers everything. Our lawyers/courts though seem to be more complicated than the UKs.

    As I've said, it would be expensive, because you would have to get a lawyer to write up any such contract to ensure it is done right, otherwise it leaves it open to legal loopholes, here in the US. That is why everything from SSNs to addresses to full names and exactly what my brother can take care of from what dates to what dates and for what reasons, plus more was written into my In loco parentis, despite knowing that it wasn't likely that he would need it. Legal contracts take money to be done right.

    In the case of marriage, the reason that it works so well, so efficiently, and is so inexpensive is because they write basically one giant contract (via laws that recognize/address spouses and their rights, benefits, privileges, responsibilities, etc.) that each couple agrees to upon getting married. These stipulations do not have to be written into each specific marriage license because they are written into laws to cover spouses. Then people can use other legal paperwork, if they choose, to strengthen their own marriages for their specific needs, if they need something else (such as someone else to handle their affairs besides their spouse for whatever reason).

    Name a single legal kinship that established in the US via private contract which is free. How much does it cost to fill out the paperwork for an adoption? There is actually adoption paperwork available for adopting adults and married minors, but even that costs money to file, including court costs.
    This is my claim: Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. When did I claim the UK did away with marriage? Honestly, are you purposefully ignoring my actual argument? Or do you really not comprehend it? Establishing next of kin via a simple contract does not need to be expensive or difficult.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It can't be done though without some sort of government involvement, such as a court case that accepts those people as legally recognized kin. Even when adopting an adult, a person has to go through the courts.
    No court case is necessary. If government requires an unnecessary court case to declare someone as next of kin, that is an inefficiency caused entirely by government, not private contract.

    No, it is not that easy. You must include socials and/or other info that specifically identifies exactly who each person is, and specifics for where that person falls when it comes to the hierarchy of next of kin. Are they each the other's closest next of kin or simply related? Are they above or below siblings, parents, cousins, spouses, who?
    It is that easy. Including that information is not hard at all. Just include it. Within the context of U.S. law, you simply state where the person falls in the hierarchy. Normally you would only declare someone to be the actual next of kin, meaning the top of the hierarchy. The fact that there is already a default hierarchy followed in the absence of a specified contract just makes it even easier.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Then I'm confused. If the intend is not to replace Civil Marriage Licenses with non-governmental next-of-kin forms but then not having that form replace marriage, then what is the use?

    Remember "next of kin" <> Spouse, and since you said you aren't looking to replace marriage - then there would still be spouses as a separate legal entity.

    While a spouse is next of kin, that does not mean that next of kin can function as a spouse. I gave some specific examples before concerning Estate Tax and Home Sale Property Exemption where ONLY a Spouse (not a next of kin) qualified under the law. There are many, many more. For example when I was in the military during the period I was unmarried - my parents were my next of kin. I could draw up documents and designate a non-releative as "next of kin". However those people would not have been eligible for Spousal privileges such as relocation to a new duty station, medical/health care treatment, command sponsorship for foreign travel. Another is Social Security Survivor payments. A Spouse is eligible to receive either their own SS rate or the rate of a deceased spouse, which ever is greater as long as they have been married a required number of contributory quarters. A "next of kin" is not eligible for that.



    >>>>
    The problem is that nearly everyone who has responded to me has completely ignored the original claim I was responding to myself in the first place. To paraphrase, the claim was "without a marriage license, establishing legal kinship would be impossible." I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the claim. Without a marriage license, a person may establish their next of kin with a very simple contract, at virtually no cost to boot. I pointed out this is done in the UK to prove obviously it was not impossible. Thus, the claim I responded to was proven wrong. That's it.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I doubt there is any new law in any remaining state ban that wasn't in the bans already overturned. The judges know that and they know the SCOTUS declined to hear the states' appeals. The message is clear and will be understood.
    You may be right. In light of the overturn of Alaska's ban, which was another constitutional amendment voted by the people. Looks like a rout. This should be interesting.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    The problem is that nearly everyone who has responded to me has completely ignored the original claim I was responding to myself in the first place. To paraphrase, the claim was "without a marriage license, establishing legal kinship would be impossible." I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the claim. Without a marriage license, a person may establish their next of kin with a very simple contract, at virtually no cost to boot. I pointed out this is done in the UK to prove obviously it was not impossible. Thus, the claim I responded to was proven wrong. That's it.

    Because you have attempted to equate next of kin with spouse. I previously said "I'm asking what other documents establish a legal next of kin relationship with the same scope currently existing for a $35.00 marriage license that is recognized and enforceable in all 50 states?" and your response was "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice." You were attempting to equal next of kin with spouse.

    Now you've said "I'm not talking about a next of kin contract replacing marriage,..." which means that next of kin and Spouse would continue to mean different things under the law. I have provided at least 4 examples of where "next of kin" and "spouse" function differently under the law (Estate Tax, Home Sale, Military Recognition, and Social Security) and there are many more.

    So while a spouse is a next of kin, a next of kin need not be a spouse. So saying I can draw up a one line sheet of paper, sign it and have it notarized, yet that piece of paper does not create a spousal relationship means - well - not a whole lot in terms of the basis of the discussion. Which are the rights, responsibilities and privileges of Civil Marriage. A "next of kin" designation gives someone the "power" to make decisions in the even you are incapacitated (maybe medical decisions, funeral arrangments, etc.) but it does transfer the responsibilities that a spousal arrangement recognizes.


    >>>>

  8. #798
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    This is my claim: Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. When did I claim the UK did away with marriage? Honestly, are you purposefully ignoring my actual argument? Or do you really not comprehend it? Establishing next of kin via a simple contract does not need to be expensive or difficult.
    But not without the government still getting involved.

    We already do have some that do this, but not for spouses because that is a specific kinship that comes with much more compensation and recognition from the government than most other kinships.

    I'm trying to figure out your argument. I began with the argument that marriage is most easily done via the government, not other forms of kinship, although it can easily be argued that it is likely more efficient to even do those through the government directly too, since they will have to be involved.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Because you have attempted to equate next of kin with spouse. I previously said "I'm asking what other documents establish a legal next of kin relationship with the same scope currently existing for a $35.00 marriage license that is recognized and enforceable in all 50 states?" and your response was "A simple contract establishing next of kin would suffice." You were attempting to equal next of kin with spouse.
    No, I was not attempting to nor did I ever equate next of kin with spouse.
    quote:

    "What other document establishes legal kinship for the myriad of laws that exist and do so for the $35.00 of a Civil Marriage license?"

    You did not ask what document establishes "the full range of spousal benefits" one would get via a marriage license. You asked what document establishes "a legal next of kin relationship" or "legal kinship." And the correct answer is a simple contract, such as those that exist in the UK. If anyone was conflating next of kin with a spouse, it was you.
    Last edited by Lakryte; 10-13-14 at 12:58 AM.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    No court case is necessary. If government requires an unnecessary court case to declare someone as next of kin, that is an inefficiency caused entirely by government, not private contract.

    It is that easy. Including that information is not hard at all. Just include it. Within the context of U.S. law, you simply state where the person falls in the hierarchy. Normally you would only declare someone to be the actual next of kin, meaning the top of the hierarchy. The fact that there is already a default hierarchy followed in the absence of a specified contract just makes it even easier.
    It is necessary to ensure that people are not trying to a) defraud the government or others that may give compensation of some sort for being a certain level of next of kin or to ensure b) that someone is not wrongfully trying to set themselves up as someone else's next of kin through fraud or by taking advantage of that person.

    It is not that easy. You definitely do not understand how complicated and full of loopholes American law is.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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