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Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are still about 15 or so states under a Circuit Court that hasn't made a ruling on this issue yet, with at least two of those Courts being said to lean toward siding with the states' bans.
    I doubt there is any new law in any remaining state ban that wasn't in the bans already overturned. The judges know that and they know the SCOTUS declined to hear the states' appeals. The message is clear and will be understood.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    My claim is that legal kinship can be provided through private contract without any significant expense, and a marriage license is not required. None of the above refutes that.
    You can't prove that though. Theoretically it could be provided privately, but in reality, it wouldn't work that easy, nor would it be "inexpensive", plus it would have to include the government on some level, so it is almost guaranteed to not be nearly as "simple" as you are trying to make it out to be.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Legal kinship cannot be legitimately established without the government being involved in some way.
    It only needs to be involved with regards to enforcement. The government does not have to issue the contract itself. Period.

    It is ridiculous to assume that it would be different if there were some form of legal kinship documents available that the government didn't offer. And so long as the government is involved, it is not likely to be cheap going through non-government sources, since legal kinship is pretty important for legal matters and affairs of a person.
    That what would be different? Writing a contract and signing it is free, especially when it is as simple as declaring someone to be the legal next of kin. It would take no more than a few lines of writing. You can even find free examples of this online to use. Your notion that it would be expensive is completely unfounded and makes no sense whatsoever. Your claims are entirely baseless.Why would it be more expensive? What would the costs be? Do you have any evidence of this? What?
    Last edited by Lakryte; 10-12-14 at 11:28 PM.
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    It only needs to be involved with regards to enforcement. The government does not have to issue the contract itself. Period.


    That what would be different? Writing a contract and signing it is free, especially when it is as simple as declaring someone to be the legal next of kin. It would take no more than a few lines. Your notion that it would be expensive is completely unfounded and makes no sense whatsoever. Your claims are entirely baseless.
    There are plenty of places where they would have to recognize the contract, or then it would be more expensive and/or less efficient than marriage currently is, therefore making it pointless to use this "private NOK" agreement rather than the government offered marriages. And should those marriages go away, be replaced by this private contract, there would be a lot of ticked off people for replacing their efficient, inexpensive marriages with something that really only gives the lawyers more money.

    No, it is not that simple. There is language that has to be used when it comes to contracts, hence why the vast majority of people hire lawyers when it comes to writing contracts, to try to get their language legally "right". My "notion" is based on current legal documents that should be simple but aren't, and shouldn't cost huge fees, but still do. An In Loco Parentis should only take a few lines as well, yet mine required two full pages to name my brother as the person who would take care of my children legally should my husband and I both be called up to go out for military service.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You can't prove that though. Theoretically it could be provided privately, but in reality, it wouldn't work that easy, nor would it be "inexpensive", plus it would have to include the government on some level, so it is almost guaranteed to not be nearly as "simple" as you are trying to make it out to be.
    I already proved it. That was the purpose of the UK example. This is just basic contract writing. Are you claiming that only government bureaucrats have the capability to write a contract? Because that is absurd.

    Why wouldn't it work easily? What is so hard about it that only government can do? Why would it be expensive to establish next of kin? Do you have any evidence of this? What? Be specific. You are throwing out these baseless assertions as gospel.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are plenty of places where they would have to recognize the contract, or then it would be more expensive and/or less efficient than marriage currently is, therefore making it pointless to use this "private NOK" agreement rather than the government offered marriages. And should those marriages go away, be replaced by this private contract, there would be a lot of ticked off people for replacing their efficient, inexpensive marriages with something that really only gives the lawyers more money.
    There you go again making no sense at all. I really don't think you understand this issue at all, with all due respect. Nobody is advocating that a next of kin contract replace marriage licenses. That doesn't even make sense. The argument, as I have stated several times quite specifically and you should know by now, is that legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document. Such a contract does not require a lawyer to be paid a single cent.

    No, it is not that simple. There is language that has to be used when it comes to contracts, hence why the vast majority of people hire lawyers when it comes to writing contracts, to try to get their language legally "right". My "notion" is based on current legal documents that should be simple but aren't, and shouldn't cost huge fees, but still do. An In Loco Parentis should only take a few lines as well, yet mine required two full pages to name my brother as the person who would take care of my children legally should my husband and I both be called up to go out for military service.
    Establishing a next of kin would require one or two lines of writing maximum. You can find free examples of such contracts online. Next of kin is a term that has a legal meaning in and of itself in the united states. Thus you do not need to explain what the term means. You just say. "For all purposes, X is the next of kin of Y." If you want something more complicated than that, then sure, hire a lawyer. But most people will not need one for something so simple. The law already exists that defines the benefits and responsibilities of a next of kin, the only question needing answering is who that is to be.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I already proved it. That was the purpose of the UK example. This is just basic contract writing. Are you claiming that only government bureaucrats have the capability to write a contract? Because that is absurd.

    Why wouldn't it work easily? What is so hard about it that only government can do? Why would it be expensive to establish next of kin? Do you have any evidence of this? What? Be specific. You are throwing out these baseless assertions as gospel.

    So have you ever established (which since you are making the claim) that that UK "next of kin" assignment does all the things that Civil Marriage does in the United States?

    United Kingdom

    The term has no legal definition in the United Kingdom. An individual can nominate any other individual as their next-of-kin. There is no requirement for the nominated person to be a blood relative, although it is common. The nominated person must agree to the nomination, otherwise it is invalid. The status of next-of-kin confers no legal rights and has no special responsibilities, except as referred to below in the specific context of the Mental Health Act.

    The status of next-of-kin does not in any way imply that they stand to inherit any of the individual's estate in the event of their death.

    In the context of health care, patients are often asked to nominate a next-of-kin when registering with their general practitioner, or alternatively on admission to hospital. Hospitals will then notify the next-of-kin that the patient has been admitted or if there is any change in their condition. If the patient is unconscious or otherwise unable to state their next-of-kin, hospitals will usually list their nearest blood relative, though there are no specific rules. Doctors attempt to seek the views of the next-of-kin when considering decision making for unconscious patients or those who lack capacity. The next-of-kin has no power to make any decisions regarding medical care, only to advise, and can neither override the previously stated wishes of the patient nor prevent the medical team acting in what they consider to be the best interests of the patient.

    Powers similar to next-of-kin as defined in other jurisdictions can be explicitly delegated to another person using lasting power of attorney,[3] under the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act 2005[4] (note that this Act does not relate specifically to mental health and is largely unrelated to the Mental Health Act). Next of kin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    >>>>

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    So have you ever established (which since you are making the claim) that that UK "next of kin" assignment does all the things that Civil Marriage does in the United States?

    United Kingdom

    The term has no legal definition in the United Kingdom. An individual can nominate any other individual as their next-of-kin. There is no requirement for the nominated person to be a blood relative, although it is common. The nominated person must agree to the nomination, otherwise it is invalid. The status of next-of-kin confers no legal rights and has no special responsibilities, except as referred to below in the specific context of the Mental Health Act.

    The status of next-of-kin does not in any way imply that they stand to inherit any of the individual's estate in the event of their death.

    In the context of health care, patients are often asked to nominate a next-of-kin when registering with their general practitioner, or alternatively on admission to hospital. Hospitals will then notify the next-of-kin that the patient has been admitted or if there is any change in their condition. If the patient is unconscious or otherwise unable to state their next-of-kin, hospitals will usually list their nearest blood relative, though there are no specific rules. Doctors attempt to seek the views of the next-of-kin when considering decision making for unconscious patients or those who lack capacity. The next-of-kin has no power to make any decisions regarding medical care, only to advise, and can neither override the previously stated wishes of the patient nor prevent the medical team acting in what they consider to be the best interests of the patient.

    Powers similar to next-of-kin as defined in other jurisdictions can be explicitly delegated to another person using lasting power of attorney,[3] under the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act 2005[4] (note that this Act does not relate specifically to mental health and is largely unrelated to the Mental Health Act). Next of kin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    >>>>
    I'm not talking about a next of kin contract replacing marriage, so no I have not established such nor do I need to. Again you address a strawman argument. Let me reiterate yet again the simple point I am making.

    Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document.

    The claim is not that hard to understand.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I already proved it. That was the purpose of the UK example. This is just basic contract writing. Are you claiming that only government bureaucrats have the capability to write a contract? Because that is absurd.

    Why wouldn't it work easily? What is so hard about it that only government can do? Why would it be expensive to establish next of kin? Do you have any evidence of this? What? Be specific. You are throwing out these baseless assertions as gospel.
    The UK are not us, nor did they do away with marriage. They simply have an additional way for people to become next of kin, but in reality I doubt it honestly covers everything. Our lawyers/courts though seem to be more complicated than the UKs.

    As I've said, it would be expensive, because you would have to get a lawyer to write up any such contract to ensure it is done right, otherwise it leaves it open to legal loopholes, here in the US. That is why everything from SSNs to addresses to full names and exactly what my brother can take care of from what dates to what dates and for what reasons, plus more was written into my In loco parentis, despite knowing that it wasn't likely that he would need it. Legal contracts take money to be done right.

    In the case of marriage, the reason that it works so well, so efficiently, and is so inexpensive is because they write basically one giant contract (via laws that recognize/address spouses and their rights, benefits, privileges, responsibilities, etc.) that each couple agrees to upon getting married. These stipulations do not have to be written into each specific marriage license because they are written into laws to cover spouses. Then people can use other legal paperwork, if they choose, to strengthen their own marriages for their specific needs, if they need something else (such as someone else to handle their affairs besides their spouse for whatever reason).

    Name a single legal kinship that established in the US via private contract which is free. How much does it cost to fill out the paperwork for an adoption? There is actually adoption paperwork available for adopting adults and married minors, but even that costs money to file, including court costs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I'm not talking about a next of kin contract replacing marriage, so no I have not established such nor do I need to. Again you address a strawman argument. Let me reiterate yet again the simple point I am making.

    Legal kinship can be established without a government issued marriage license or any government issued document.

    The claim is not that hard to understand.
    It can't be done though without some sort of government involvement, such as a court case that accepts those people as legally recognized kin. Even when adopting an adult, a person has to go through the courts.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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