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Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It absolutely is cheaper and more efficient to have a single document, the marriage license, to deal with all the issues that come up with spouses.
    Now you are moving the goalposts from "establishing next of kin" to "anything that has to do with spouses." It does not cost $300 to create a contract that says "so-and-so is my next of kin under the law" and sign it. It costs nothing, unless government makes the process more difficult by imposing additional fees.

    I agree with you on a lot of things, but in this case you seem to just be missing the point (which was really just a minor aside).
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And even at $100, that is less than it cost to make a will through a lawyer, let alone much of the other paperwork that is also covered.

    And there are no legal papers via a lawyer that establish a legally recognized kinship here in the US without also having the government involved.
    Why do you consistently make strawman arguments? When did I ever say the government is not involved in legally recognized kinship in the United States? Quote where you believe I claimed such.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Who cares if you "buy" it or not. It is part of history. Just because you don't want to believe people doesn't mean it didn't happen. Is it possible that it didn't? Sure. But there are reports of same sex marriage so it is no less believable than many other things that we have reports of happening in the past, including stand in marriages (someone else taking one of the spouses' places for the wedding/marriage for whatever reason, agreeing in their place and taking on their responsibilities as a spouse for as long as needed) or a woman with multiple husbands (only reported in maybe one culture in history).
    Unless you can provide some documentation I'll have to call your claim bogus. Same sex relationships? Sure. Same sex marriages, socially sanctioned and accepted? Not so much.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    That was only part of it. They stopped fearing coming out because they were becoming more and more accepted.
    Now you have a chicken vs egg question.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not really. That acceptance that it isn't a choice seems to come after support from individuals is gained for many people that I've seen. It doesn't seem to really be all that big of a factor for many people, just an extra.
    It was the fundamental change for most people.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It really is that simple. Marriage is the legal method of recognizing spousal relationships. There is nothing about being a spouse that requires two people of the opposite sex, just as there is nothing about being a spouse (legally) that requires two people of the same race. It honestly is legally that simple.
    Now we have come full circle. Loving was about access to an extant institution. The debate about same sex marriage has been about creation of a new institution.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Unfortunately a lot of bigots have jumped onto "there should just be no marriage licenses at all" bandwagon as a cover for their homophobia. I personally favor same-sex marriage because it is the best realistic solution. Idealistically I prefer that government doesn't get into social affairs with licenses and the like at all, but that isn't going to happen as far as I can see.
    Funny how they all suddenly, just as SSM becomes a reality, wish to do away with marriage altogether. You'd think in order to mask how not at all coincidental this is, they'd have picked a slightly different time to start with these pleas. Then again, they aren't the most adept at seeing how their tactics will look from others' point of view, or relating to others period.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Now you are moving the goalposts from "establishing next of kin" to "anything that has to do with spouses." It does not cost $300 to create a contract that says "so-and-so is my next of kin under the law" and sign it. It costs nothing, unless government makes the process more difficult by imposing additional fees.

    I agree with you on a lot of things, but in this case you seem to just be missing the point (which was really just a minor aside).
    It would still have to be recognized by the government. But since such legal paperwork doesn't exist in the US, then you have no idea how much it would cost. It would almost certainly have to be notarized though, which costs money for most people.

    But the fact that legal marriage sets up those other things I talked about, established by the government and laws, means that the government would either a) still be involved, the same as before or b) those things would have to be done another way, meaning it would cost more money.

    I'm fine with setting up paperwork that could make someone else a closest next of kin without marriage, in the manner you describe, but having it available alongside marriage, not by disestablishing it. Nor do I believe that it would be done without the government. It would still have to be recognized by the government, so there is no reason the government shouldn't do it, the same as they do birth certificates, file adoption records, and set up marriages. They almost certainly will require fees, despite what you may not like. But it also would not remove government from marriages or take the place of marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Now we have come full circle. Loving was about access to an extant institution. The debate about same sex marriage has been about creation of a new institution.
    Same sex marriage is about access to an already existing institution, marriage, despite what you keep trying to claim. Marriage already exists. Same sex couples are just asking to enter into it legally, just as mixed race couples did with Loving. It is not a new institution at all.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It was the fundamental change for most people.
    Actually, it was really just a realization for many. Some simply grew close to or got to know better someone who is gay, possibly someone they always knew but just found out they were gay and it dawned on them that they didn't really have a good reason to deny marriage to same sex couples. Others were raised to believe that it wasn't an issue, like me, and how I am raising my children.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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