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Thread: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There has, as well, been a sea change in attitudes going back to before the tech revolution. I think the critical element was the realization that being gay is not a choice.
    Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter. There are plenty of people who still don't recognize it as not being a choice and plenty who would still support it if it was a choice. I personally support it no matter if it is a choice or not because it should be a choice people are allowed to make.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Of course the recognition comes from the government. I never argued otherwise, and I even explicitly stated that in my post. Reread what I wrote:

    Why does the documentation have to come from the government? Government recognizes and enforces private contracts as well. Legal kinship could easily be recognized through private contracts. Nothing needs to be issued from the government.

    My point, which was very clear, is that government recognizes documentation that it does not itself create or issue. Government very easily can recognize legal kinship through a private contract. It does all the time in something called a will.
    Because it is cheaper and more efficient for it to come from the government. I do not want to have to pay some lawyer thousands of dollars in fees for paperwork that says the same thing that I can pay the government $30 for, when the government is going to want to see proof of all that paperwork anyway. If they are giving the paperwork to me to fill out, sign and return to them, then they file away and have a record of for a low fee, plus I have my own copy with that same fee (or additional for a bit more), then it is more efficient for everyone. This is the one thing that I can think of when it comes to paperwork that the government does more efficiently than any private contracts could do.

    A will is not a declaration of kinship at all. Just because I want my best friend or roommate to have some of my possessions, or all of them, doesn't mean I want them to make certain decisions for me.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    My point was that Loving cannot stand as a precedent in the gay marriage discussion because Loving was about access to an established social convention and the gay marriage discussion has been about whether a new social convention should be established. That question has been answered in the affirmative. Your points about bigamy, polygamy, etc. are logical. I expect to see those discussions begin after the gay marriage dust has settled.
    Loving was about access to marriage by certain types of couples, the same as same sex marriage cases are.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Wrong. It existed in several places, including the Roman Empire, China, Egypt, several native American tribes and others.
    Not buying it.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Technology and the younger generation seeing the similarities that do exist between the gay rights movement and the civil rights movement of the past, not to mention simply knowing people who are gay. The most influential one though is technology when it comes to the speed of the acceptance. Knowledge is power.

    I think it was more that gays came out.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter. There are plenty of people who still don't recognize it as not being a choice and plenty who would still support it if it was a choice. I personally support it no matter if it is a choice or not because it should be a choice people are allowed to make.
    Fine, but beside the point. Realization that it's not a choice, but like race is something you're born with, made it politically potent and enabled the civil rights analogy.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Loving was about access to marriage by certain types of couples, the same as same sex marriage cases are.
    Too simplistic.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because it is cheaper and more efficient for it to come from the government. I do not want to have to pay some lawyer thousands of dollars in fees for paperwork that says the same thing that I can pay the government $30 for, when the government is going to want to see proof of all that paperwork anyway. If they are giving the paperwork to me to fill out, sign and return to them, then they file away and have a record of for a low fee, plus I have my own copy with that same fee (or additional for a bit more), then it is more efficient for everyone. This is the one thing that I can think of when it comes to paperwork that the government does more efficiently than any private contracts could do.

    A will is not a declaration of kinship at all. Just because I want my best friend or roommate to have some of my possessions, or all of them, doesn't mean I want them to make certain decisions for me.
    It is not cheaper, nor is it more efficient, for it to come from that government. That is the false assumption you are basing your entire opinion on.

    You don't have to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars in fees to create a government recognized contract that establishes next of kin. In some counties here in CA a marriage license costs $100, so your $30 figure isn't even accurate for everyone either. As to your last point, if you don't want your friend to be next of kin, don't assign him as such in your will.

    In the UK, you can establish anyone you want to be next of kin. If you don't trust your family, you are not forced to be at their whims and can have a close friend be your next of kin. Here in the U.S. the fact you cannot do that only further proves the point that government is inept. Government restrictions on private contracts making them less efficient is a problem with government, not private contracts.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    You don't have to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars in fees to create a government recognized contract that establishes next of kin. In some counties here in CA a marriage license costs $100, so your $30 figure isn't even accurate for everyone either. As to your last point, if you don't want your friend to be next of kin, don't assign him as such in your will.
    1. Where I live the cost for a Marriage License is in fact $30. (Marriage Licenses)

    2. A Will does not create a legal "next of kin" relationship. A "next of kin" relationship establishes a defined legal relationship that exists during life (spouse in the case of marriage, child in the case of adoption) and on into death. A Will only establishes two things: (a) the estates executor, and (b) beneficiaries of estate assets after death. Two different things.



    >>>>

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    Re: **BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    1. Where I live the cost for a Marriage License is in fact $30. (Marriage Licenses)
    That's not true everywhere, which was my point. I never denied that somewhere it costs $30, so your point is moot.

    2. A Will does not create a legal "next of kin" relationship. A "next of kin" relationship establishes a defined legal relationship that exists during life (spouse in the case of marriage, child in the case of adoption) and on into death. A Will only establishes two things: (a) the estates executor, and (b) beneficiaries of estate assets after death. Two different things.
    A will very much can establish a next of kin relationship. Next of kin relationships also matter after death (for example, the administrator of the estate). Inheritance automatically goes to next of kind, unless the will states otherwise.

    For a living next of kin relationship (such as in the event of entering a vegetative state) that would be even easier. Just say "I hereby appoint so-and-so as my next of kin" and have both parties sign. Simple as that. That would encompass any law or policy that requires a next of kin. In the United Kingdom, the process is similar to that.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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