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Thread: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate.....

  1. #31
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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    1. No direct flights - That is irrelevant.
    It's a relevant response to calls to "ban all the flights from affected countries" because it demonstrates the fundamental ignorance of the people making those demands. If we were talking about suggestions around limiting visas or checking passports, you'd have a point (albeit a point of discussion, not conclusion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    2. Even if travel could be reduced by eighty per cent—itself a feat—models predict that new transmissions would be delayed only a few weeks - That is a stupid argument.
    Again, a relevant response to the claims that banning flights will prevent the disease reaching the US. As a general statement of fact, it's relevant to any reasoned consideration and debate over this kind of proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    3. It will affect the economy- Yes, it will affect those countries but they are screwed anyway. The effect on the US economy will be positive as people get less scared.
    I question whether people in the USA who are so scared of Ebola as to significantly reduce their economic impact are going to be placated by such policies being implemented (especially if they don't work as promised). It's undeniable that there would be some economic impact on airlines and the like. This obviously isn't the be-all and end-all but is still a relevant factor in assessing such proposals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    4. It will be harder to bring aid- No it won't. We don't need to have the same rules for everyone. Aid workers should be allowed to go home, but they will be placed in quarantine till we know they are safe.
    I'd expect the quarantine procedures to be in place already but if there are no flights how do they get home at all? How do they get out there in the first place? Charities can hardly afford to charter planes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Remember it is the same people who previously said ebola was no big deal and put in zero effort to fight it in July.
    Nobody in any way informed has ever said Ebola was "no big deal". If anything, the concept of holing up and hoping it all goes away is a dismissal of the seriousness of the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I believe there is another reason, but they don't like mentioning it. "They are worried that if they close the borders, then Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone will get mad at western countries and it will be harder to help them."
    Isn't that a possibility and thus another relevant argument against implementing extreme restrictions?

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    It's a relevant response to calls to "ban all the flights from affected countries" because it demonstrates the fundamental ignorance of the people making those demands. If we were talking about suggestions around limiting visas or checking passports, you'd have a point (albeit a point of discussion, not conclusion).
    What people say, and what they mean is not always the same. For instance, when people say free education what they actually mean is government funded education.

    If you actually ask them a little bit more, then they will tell you that what they really want to do. They want to prevent people with ebola to travel to the US.

    Again, a relevant response to the claims that banning flights will prevent the disease reaching the US. As a general statement of fact, it's relevant to any reasoned consideration and debate over this kind of proposal.
    Again, you are using language instead of logic as an argument. If they totally want to prevent any ebola reaching the US, then we already have failed. However, it is an advantage to have 1 case instead of 10.

    I question whether people in the USA who are so scared of Ebola as to significantly reduce their economic impact are going to be placated by such policies being implemented (especially if they don't work as promised). It's undeniable that there would be some economic impact on airlines and the like. This obviously isn't the be-all and end-all but is still a relevant factor in assessing such proposals.
    Wrong again, the impact on airlines will be positive. The passengers from ebola stricken countries is tiny compared to the overall number of passengers. However, if Americans and Europeans get scared of flying because they may end up sitting next to someone with ebola then that will lead to huge cost for airlines.

    I'd expect the quarantine procedures to be in place already but if there are no flights how do they get home at all? How do they get out there in the first place? Charities can hardly afford to charter planes.
    That is what I say all passengers from Liberia/Guinea/etc should go through, shamefully politicians do not want to implement it yet. I am not sure what quarantine procedures there are for health care workers, but there are no quarantine procedures for people coming from Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone. That is the problem.

    Nobody in any way informed has ever said Ebola was "no big deal". If anything, the concept of holing up and hoping it all goes away is a dismissal of the seriousness of the issue.
    A lot of people said ebola was not a big deal.
    RELAX, UK – WE'RE NOT ALL GOING TO DIE OF EBOLA
    Largest ever Ebola outbreak is not a global threat : Nature News & Comment

    And no, "holing up" (meaning we restrict visas and look for liberian passport stamps) is not dismissal of the seriousness of the issue. It a move that needs to be done, because we consider it a serious issue. It is like a wildfire. You sometimes need to chop down some forest to prevent it from spreading, instead of putting all effort on throwing water on the fire.


    Isn't that a possibility and thus another relevant argument against implementing extreme restrictions?
    Problem is, it is the only relevant argument, all the others are excuses because the one argument is not strong enough. To keep Liberians happy is not as important as preventing the spread of ebola.
    Last edited by Camlon; 10-07-14 at 09:51 AM.

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    What people say, and what they mean is not always the same.
    Too true but I have no faith in the understanding an individual has of this kind of situation if they can't express their position clearly and calmly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    They want to prevent people with ebola to travel to the US.
    Nobody wants infected people travelling anywhere (some people care about places outside the US too). The question is how we can best minimise that risk and what the other consequences or side effects of such measures could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Wrong again, the impact on airlines will be positive.
    Well we’ve changed what is being proposed here so the impacts of airlines would be different. Of course they can speak for themselves. Is there anything from the airlines suggesting they think we should go further than the restrictions they and the various governments have already implemented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    That is what I say all passengers from Liberia/Guinea/etc should go through, shamefully politicians do not want to implement it yet.
    I'm not sure how practical that would actually be. Where and how would you implement all this quarantining of people? How would you identify who it would apply to? Note that I'm not dismissing the idea, just asking practical questions that would have to be answered for the proposal to be seriously considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    A lot of people said ebola was not a big deal.
    Neither of your links said it's no big deal. One said "We're not all going to die" and the other "It's not a global threat". Both recognised and acknowledged the problem and risks related to the current Ebola outbreak, they just tempered some of the more extreme rhetoric being thrown around.

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    Well we’ve changed what is being proposed here so the impacts of airlines would be different. Of course they can speak for themselves. Is there anything from the airlines suggesting they think we should go further than the restrictions they and the various governments have already implemented?
    What exactly should the airlines do. They are not going to make public statements, because they don't want people to be scared to fly with them. Some airlines have stopped flying there, but other take advantage of the fact that other airlines have left.

    I'm not sure how practical that would actually be. Where and how would you implement all this quarantining of people? How would you identify who it would apply to? Note that I'm not dismissing the idea, just asking practical questions that would have to be answered for the proposal to be seriously considered.
    It doesn't really matter where they are quarantined, but the most safe way would be they are quarantined in the country of destination. If they are on a visa, then they need to pay for the cost themselves. Government can pay if it is their own citizens.

    Since it needs to applied to everyone leaving those countries, then I don't need to identify who is sick or not. Better to quarantine everyone that to let some people with Ebola loose on the street, essentially murdering several people each time.

    Neither of your links said it's no big deal. One said "We're not all going to die" and the other "It's not a global threat". Both recognized and acknowledged the problem and risks related to the current Ebola outbreak, they just tempered some of the more extreme rhetoric being thrown around.
    Both links are totally ignoring the fact that millions are likely to die from Ebola in just Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea alone. If nothing is done and if there are no travel restrictions, then as they are leaving the country there will be small outbreaks everywhere. In all likelihood, without travel restrictions there will be a pandemic that will spread to countries like India and Nigeria and will kill hundred of million people. In western countries we are probably able to contain it, but it won't be cheap.

    If that is not a global threat, then what isn't. These people completely missed the target when they predicted Ebola. Now they claim we should not have travel restrictions. They were wrong before, they are wrong again.

    Also, I am quite confident that in a few months we will have "closed the borders". Hopefully it hasn't spread to another developing country by then.

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    If Ebola can survive outside the body on inanimate objects for a extended period of time.

    Doesn't that mean that it can be transmitted through the air from Coughing or Sneezing ?

    And wouldn't that mean that its transmissible by air ?

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    If Ebola can survive outside the body on inanimate objects for a extended period of time.

    Doesn't that mean that it can be transmitted through the air from Coughing or Sneezing ?

    And wouldn't that mean that its transmissible by air ?
    It doesn't float around in the air, so it is not considered airborne. If you are in another room, then the risk of getting the disease is zero.

    However, yes you can get sick from them sneezing on you. But the most likely way to get sick is by touching an object with Ebola and then touch your face. An average person touch their face 500 - 2000 times a day. You need to wash your hands extremely often to not have any risk if you are close to someone with Ebola.

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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    It's not exactly touching your face. Skin is an excellent viral barrier. It's touching the mucous membranes of the eyes, nose, or mouth that gives a virus access. A face mask with an eye shield is sufficient protection, coupled with frequent hand-washing.
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    Re: High risk Ebola could reach France and UK by end-October, scientists calculate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    It doesn't float around in the air, so it is not considered airborne. If you are in another room, then the risk of getting the disease is zero.

    However, yes you can get sick from them sneezing on you. But the most likely way to get sick is by touching an object with Ebola and then touch your face. An average person touch their face 500 - 2000 times a day. You need to wash your hands extremely often to not have any risk if you are close to someone with Ebola.


    If it a Ebola victim coughs or sneezes then it most definitely can travel through or float around in the air

    How is the Flu transmitted in comparison ? The same way.

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