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Thread: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

  1. #401
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I get what you are saying, and it was my position for quite some time. But the harm inflicted may be less if just one baker says no as opposed to 20, but a harm is committed nonetheless. To me, the area that is black and white is the extreme scenario I presented where everyone denies a black man service. I know with certainty that is wrong. I have not found an argument that can reconcile allowing some discrimination but not allowing everyone to discriminate.


    It might be, but I doubt it. Some churches still refuse to marry interracial couples, and nobody has forced them to change. If anything, the people who create the change our the members of the church who end up pressuring the church to change from the inside out.
    I guess ultimately where I have conflicted feelings in this is that, unlike the scenario with all the racist white people (ie Jim Crow South) I do find myself sympathetic to the bakery owner. Not because of their views per say, but because the couple did have other options I'm sure, and that bakery owner just happened to be the ones chosen to be crucified (pun intended).

    However, and you may disagree but follow me on this, I'm very proud of the way race relations are in this country today. Some people go around pretending it's as bad as it was back then, but for me, a millennial, who went to school that was integrated, Racism is a remnant of the bygone era. Even for those in my circles that are black, they don't talk about race in the same way I hear much older folks talk about it. And there's no way we would of progressed as a society were it not for government stepping in and forcing integration. I think because of that lesson, and while SSM is a much smaller issue than racism (especially in the 60's), I do agree that discrimination in any of it's form simply can't be tolerated, and the best way to progress as a tolerant society is to stamp out these situations when they crop up.

    My one fear is that we will push this envelope to far, and in the name of equality, will push things that our society aren't ready for, or shouldn't ever occur.

  2. #402
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    One other question; how does this apply to Churches and Marriages. Should a Church be forced into carrying out SSM?
    No, churches are special cases, they are allowed to discriminate. Businesses catering to the public are not.

    You realize how many injustices wouldn't of been addressed if people just had that attitude? I'm not arguing that we should restart segregation, I just really haven't developed an argument on the topic which is what I was looking for.
    Then maybe you ought to get started on that.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I did not say there is a health risk, that wasn't the analogy, the analogy is that if a business is excused for one reg, it can be excused for others.....THE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

    And again, it was YOUR premise that "if it was just one, well...it isn't so bad....but since there are probably others,well we should do something....even though I am not entirely comfortable with that"..

    That is, how can I say...um...""flimsy".
    Oh okay, I see what you are saying now. When you said sanitation, that made me think of health risk (people not washing their hands when handling food, that sort of thing).

    As far as it being flimsy, I don't dispute that. It's easy in this case to say we are protecting against the extremes, but if I was judge, I don't think I'd rule based on that. In that case, I would rule on what is best for all parties involved, try and find an amicable solution. Perhaps suggest that the Bakery, who might be familiar with others, recommend one (though at this point, I'm sure they could find someone). Again, when I think of someone being forced to do something by the government, that bothers me. And as long as there was an alternative, I'd side with the Bakery, and I'd be sure to limit the ruling as such to not have a larger impact. However, were I at a higher court, with far more to consider, I'd probably go the other way.

    It might be flimsy, but in that case, it be my prerogative.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Perhaps you missed the part where I typed "/end sarcasm."
    Must have. 'Be more careful next week.

  5. #405
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I guess ultimately where I have conflicted feelings in this is that, unlike the scenario with all the racist white people (ie Jim Crow South) I do find myself sympathetic to the bakery owner. Not because of their views per say, but because the couple did have other options I'm sure, and that bakery owner just happened to be the ones chosen to be crucified (pun intended).
    I understand the conflict. But if it is wrong for everyone to discriminate against a black man because of his race, how is it not wrong for one business to do it? If a town only has one thief, does that mean the thief should be excused?

    However, and you may disagree but follow me on this, I'm very proud of the way race relations are in this country today. Some people go around pretending it's as bad as it was back then, but for me, a millennial, who went to school that was integrated, Racism is a remnant of the bygone era. Even for those in my circles that are black, they don't talk about race in the same way I hear much older folks talk about it. And there's no way we would of progressed as a society were it not for government stepping in and forcing integration. I think because of that lesson, and while SSM is a much smaller issue than racism (especially in the 60's), I do agree that discrimination in any of it's form simply can't be tolerated, and the best way to progress as a tolerant society is to stamp out these situations when they crop up.

    My one fear is that we will push this envelope to far, and in the name of equality, will push things that our society aren't ready for, or shouldn't ever occur.
    I am also a millennial that has grown up in similar circumstances. Where I am in CA, the white population does not even make up a plurality of people. And I don't really care, and neither does anyone my age. My high school was very integrated as well. But I don't think the same is necessarily true for all regions in the country. In Alabama in 2000, 40% of people voted to keep their interracial marriage ban--even though it had absolutely no effect. And although I feel our generation is better at this overall, the older generations are still in power controlling the policy or owning the businesses.

    But we have come far around the country from where we were decades ago. I don't think that can be denied. I think a clearer understanding of what categories are "aggressive" discrimination would do a lot of good. For example, barring a known shoplifter from coming into your store isn't a problem. Nor should barring some naked guy from walking in. I think the line is drawn somewhere along the lines of things that are inherent.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I understand the conflict. But if it is wrong for everyone to discriminate against a black man because of his race, how is it not wrong for one business to do it? If a town only has one thief, does that mean the thief should be excused?

    I am also a millennial that has grown up in similar circumstances. Where I am in CA, the white population does not even make up a plurality of people. And I don't really care, and neither does anyone my age. My high school was very integrated as well. But I don't think the same is necessarily true for all regions in the country. In Alabama in 2000, 40% of people voted to keep their interracial marriage ban--even though it had absolutely no effect. And although I feel our generation is better at this overall, the older generations are still in power controlling the policy or owning the businesses.

    But we have come far around the country from where we were decades ago. I don't think that can be denied. I think a clearer understanding of what categories are "aggressive" discrimination would do a lot of good. For example, barring a known shoplifter from coming into your store isn't a problem. Nor should barring some naked guy from walking in. I think the line is drawn somewhere along the lines of things that are inherent.
    I'd be very curious if the same vote occurred today, what the results would be, seeing as how far the nation has swung on the issue of SSM.

    You don't see a public safety risk with having a nudist walking on the streets where cars are driving by? Perhaps in CA it wouldn't turn as many heads, but I think in rural communities, like the one I lived in, it has the potential to cause accidents and thus endangering the public. Hell, accidents have been caused by less distracting things than a nude person.

  7. #407
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'd be very curious if the same vote occurred today, what the results would be, seeing as how far the nation has swung on the issue of SSM.

    You don't see a public safety risk with having a nudist walking on the streets where cars are driving by? Perhaps in CA it wouldn't turn as many heads, but I think in rural communities, like the one I lived in, it has the potential to cause accidents and thus endangering the public. Hell, accidents have been caused by less distracting things than a nude person.
    I'm not sure how much different it would be. I said barring a nudist isn't a problem.
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  8. #408
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Oh okay, I see what you are saying now. When you said sanitation, that made me think of health risk (people not washing their hands when handling food, that sort of thing).

    As far as it being flimsy, I don't dispute that. It's easy in this case to say we are protecting against the extremes, but if I was judge, I don't think I'd rule based on that. In that case, I would rule on what is best for all parties involved, try and find an amicable solution. Perhaps suggest that the Bakery, who might be familiar with others, recommend one (though at this point, I'm sure they could find someone). Again, when I think of someone being forced to do something by the government, that bothers me. And as long as there was an alternative, I'd side with the Bakery, and I'd be sure to limit the ruling as such to not have a larger impact. However, were I at a higher court, with far more to consider, I'd probably go the other way.

    It might be flimsy, but in that case, it be my prerogative.
    You are excusing a business from following a regulation and justifying by saying they should not forced to follow regulatory provisions.

    BS.

    If a business is excused you are creating a slope down which law is pointless. If the business does not wish to follow regulatory provisions, then what is the point of having any? It again is as if Jim Crow never existed and we don't have to understand how we have gotten to this point.
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  9. #409
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are excusing a business from following a regulation and justifying by saying they should not forced to follow regulatory provisions.

    BS.

    If a business is excused you are creating a slope down which law is pointless. If the business does not wish to follow regulatory provisions, then what is the point of having any? It again is as if Jim Crow never existed and we don't have to understand how we have gotten to this point.
    Unless the ruling is limited, then you don't have the broad effect which which you wish brush.

  10. #410
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I'm not sure how much different it would be. I said barring a nudist isn't a problem.
    Misunderstood, my bad.

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