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Thread: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

  1. #391
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Because discriminating based on inherent characteristics violates the non-aggression principle.

    Imagine there is a black man in a town of all white people. He is the only black man. Nobody can leave the town or go anywhere else. Now the entire town is racist and refuses to serve the black man. He cannot buy property. He cannot rent property. He cannot eat. He cannot work. He is shut out from society. In this scenario, is your answer really just "well, people can choose who to serve?"

    Now if this man were a known thief and criminal, and because of that people were barring him from society, then it would be a different story. He was the initial aggressor, and must face the consequences. But that is not the case.

    The issue is that each individual has a right to participate in a free market. Discrimination based on factors like race simply violates that right.
    I'm definitely with you in that extreme, but is that really all we have on this argument? Worrying about extreme? In the case with the cake maker, I'm sure that there were other options the couple had. Instead of pursuing those, they decided to make a stink, and to me, that rubs me wrong. But I do appreciate the non-aggression principle, that's certainly something to work from.

    One other question; how does this apply to Churches and Marriages. Should a Church be forced into carrying out SSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But that's really what it comes down to. It is the law. You follow the law or face the consequences. If you want to try to change the law, there are means to do so. Do so. Succeed or fail. Just saying that you can ignore the law because you have a moral problem with it is foolish.
    You realize how many injustices wouldn't of been addressed if people just had that attitude? I'm not arguing that we should restart segregation, I just really haven't developed an argument on the topic which is what I was looking for.

    Like the above.

  2. #392
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    The authoritarianism in your post is revolting.
    He's merely stating a fact, if gay marriage becomes the law of the land in all states. Just as it is in those states where gay marriage is legal.

    Just like businesses have to hire minorities, whether they like it or not. It's just a factual statement. Nothing authoritarian about the statement. But the law IS King in our country, so I guess the law can be said to be authoritarian (except we can change laws).
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  3. #393
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm definitely with you in that extreme, but is that really all we have on this argument? Worrying about extreme? In the case with the cake maker, I'm sure that there were other options the couple had. Instead of pursuing those, they decided to make a stink, and to me, that rubs me wrong. But I do appreciate the non-aggression principle, that's certainly something to work from.
    If you are with me in that extreme, then you cannot be against me in the other cases. That is the only consistent position. Otherwise, you are saying "well, if one person does this bad thing it should be legal, but if a bunch of people do it, then suddenly it is wrong." That is a fallacious position to hold.

    One other question; how does this apply to Churches and Marriages. Should a Church be forced into carrying out SSM?
    I don't believe a church should be forced to carry out a SSM. But a church is not analogous to a bakery. The marriage license is also a creation of government, not the church, so it is government then must provide them equally. Anything the church does is purely ceremonial with regards to marriage. If not a single church in the town allowed the black man to get married, he could still get the marriage license and have all the benefits conferred by it.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    If you are with me in that extreme, then you cannot be against me in the other cases. That is the only consistent position. Otherwise, you are saying "well, if one person does this bad thing it should be legal, but if a bunch of people do it, then suddenly it is wrong." That is a fallacious position to hold.
    I don't disagree with you, but I find myself considering the specifics in this case, instead of arguing the issue of discrimination as a whole. It would be analogous to a judge offering a limited opinion instead of a broader sweeping one. Let me say this, I'd feel more comfortable on your side of the fence had even one more cake maker said no to them because they were gay. Truth be told, I'm sure in this entire country there was at least one more bakery that would of said it, so in the end, I'll said with not discriminating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I don't believe a church should be forced to carry out a SSM. But a church is not analogous to a bakery. The marriage license is also a creation of government, not the church, so it is government then must provide them equally. Anything the church does is purely ceremonial with regards to marriage. If not a single church in the town allowed the black man to get married, he could still get the marriage license and have all the benefits conferred by it.
    The reason I brought up churches is that this is where the line of thought has gone to in places like Denmark, where churches are forced to carry out weddings, despite their objections. The other thing to consider though is that, in this country, we have the Separation of Church and State, and for the State to make that sort of ruling would clearly violate that I would believe. As you said though, legally speaking, the church doesn't have to come into play for a couple to be "married", so I guess in the end it doesn't really matter. Though I do wonder if at some point, that will be a case to be brought up.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Let me say this, I'd feel more comfortable on your side of the fence had even one more cake maker said no to them because they were gay. Truth be told, I'm sure in this entire country there was at least one more bakery that would of said it, so in the end, I'll said with not discriminating.
    So going further down your slope, since there are other bakeries, this bakery would not have to follow other regs....like....sanitation.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    So going further down your slope, since there are other bakeries, this bakery would not have to follow other regs....like....sanitation.
    What? Have you even been following the other posts?

    *Reads and sits on it*

    What I was saying was that because I doubt this is the only (public) christian establishment (let alone bakery) that would discriminate against SS couples, I would side with not discriminating and issue the broad ruling. I was really more typing out my thoughts, then trying to be concise like over where we're talking about WW2. I can see how the writing styles would be confusing.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    What? Have you even been following the other posts?
    I'm reading your post, you are predicating your response with "if there had been one more act of discrimination against them, I would be more "comfortable" agreeing with calling it discrimination"

    you are getting close to excusing it because it is isolated.

    So going further down your slope, since there are other bakeries, this bakery would not have to follow other regs....like....sanitation.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  8. #398
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I don't disagree with you, but I find myself considering the specifics in this case, instead of arguing the issue of discrimination as a whole. It would be analogous to a judge offering a limited opinion instead of a broader sweeping one. Let me say this, I'd feel more comfortable on your side of the fence had even one more cake maker said no to them because they were gay. Truth be told, I'm sure in this entire country there was at least one more bakery that would of said it, so in the end, I'll said with not discriminating.
    I get what you are saying, and it was my position for quite some time. But the harm inflicted may be less if just one baker says no as opposed to 20, but a harm is committed nonetheless. To me, the area that is black and white is the extreme scenario I presented where everyone denies a black man service. I know with certainty that is wrong. I have not found an argument that can reconcile allowing some discrimination but not allowing everyone to discriminate.

    The reason I brought up churches is that this is where the line of thought has gone to in places like Denmark, where churches are forced to carry out weddings, despite their objections. The other thing to consider though is that, in this country, we have the Separation of Church and State, and for the State to make that sort of ruling would clearly violate that I would believe. As you said though, legally speaking, the church doesn't have to come into play for a couple to be "married", so I guess in the end it doesn't really matter. Though I do wonder if at some point, that will be a case to be brought up.
    It might be, but I doubt it. Some churches still refuse to marry interracial couples, and nobody has forced them to change. If anything, the people who create the change our the members of the church who end up pressuring the church to change from the inside out.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I'm reading your post, you are predicating your response with "if there had been one more act of discrimination against them, I would be more "comfortable" agreeing with calling it discrimination"

    you are getting close to excusing it because it is isolated.

    So going further down your slope, since there are other bakeries, this bakery would not have to follow other regs....like....sanitation.
    Yes but then I said:

    "Truth be told, I'm sure in this entire country there was at least one more bakery that would of said it, so in the end, I'll said with not discriminating."

    In other words, where there's one person who discriminates, there's going to be others. And since it's not isolated, then it's something that must be stopped. But on the sanitation this, there's a public health risk there... choosing not to serve someone doesn't present a health risk.

  10. #400
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Yes but then I said:

    "Truth be told, I'm sure in this entire country there was at least one more bakery that would of said it, so in the end, I'll said with not discriminating."

    In other words, where there's one person who discriminates, there's going to be others. And since it's not isolated, then it's something that must be stopped. But on the sanitation this, there's a public health risk there... choosing not to serve someone doesn't present a health risk.
    I did not say there is a health risk, that wasn't the analogy, the analogy is that if a business is excused for one reg, it can be excused for others.....THE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

    And again, it was YOUR premise that "if it was just one, well...it isn't so bad....but since there are probably others,well we should do something....even though I am not entirely comfortable with that"..

    That is, how can I say...um...""flimsy".
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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