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Thread: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

  1. #381
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    It is not necessary to prove God's existence to prove Hell's existence.

    Those who commits grievous sins in their life, will naturally experience suffering in the afterlife, since they cannot be perfect.

    Since this suffering would be eternal in character, it would involve the absolute despair which is indicated by damnation.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I understand that there are laws, I'm not talking about that. I mean, what is the moral/philosophical justification for those laws? I mean, we don't have a problem if these stores were private, and chose only to sell to certain individuals right? What is it about Public, that changes that?
    I couldn't care less about the supposed moral/philosophical justification of the laws. The laws are in place. People have to deal with the laws whether they agree with them or like them or not. I can have all the moral or philosophical disagreements I want with the local speed limits but if I speed, the cop has every right to pull me over and give me a ticket because I'm obligated to follow the law, whether I like it or not, or accept the legal consequences for violating the law.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I couldn't care less about the supposed moral/philosophical justification of the laws. The laws are in place. People have to deal with the laws whether they agree with them or like them or not. I can have all the moral or philosophical disagreements I want with the local speed limits but if I speed, the cop has every right to pull me over and give me a ticket because I'm obligated to follow the law, whether I like it or not, or accept the legal consequences for violating the law.
    Had people of had the same view of Plessy vs. Ferguson, we probably would still have a segregated south.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Had people of had the same view of Plessy vs. Ferguson, we probably would still have a segregated south.
    The people changed the laws. Let me know when the legal requirements for equal treatment also change. Wishful thinking means jack squat.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The people changed the laws. Let me know when the legal requirements for equal treatment also change. Wishful thinking means jack squat.
    The people didn't change anything. Brown v. Board of Education did that...

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    The people didn't change anything. Brown v. Board of Education did that...
    Then let me know when the courts change something. Until something actually happens, people are still obligated to follow the existing laws.
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Then let me know when the courts change something. Until something actually happens, people are still obligated to follow the existing laws.
    Wait what were we talking about? *reads up*

    Oh okay then. The reason I asked that was because I wanted more of a reason than to say "it's the law". Something like that which is so obviously the right thing to do (ending segregation that is), should have a better argument than "it's the law". I assumed when they were arguing Brown, that argument didn't seem to fly. As it applies to this case, we're basically the same thing (choosing to not do business with someone because their different), and it would seem to apply if you understand.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Wait what were we talking about? *reads up*

    Oh okay then. The reason I asked that was because I wanted more of a reason than to say "it's the law". Something like that which is so obviously the right thing to do (ending segregation that is), should have a better argument than "it's the law". I assumed when they were arguing Brown, that argument didn't seem to fly. As it applies to this case, we're basically the same thing (choosing to not do business with someone because their different), and it would seem to apply if you understand.
    But that's really what it comes down to. It is the law. You follow the law or face the consequences. If you want to try to change the law, there are means to do so. Do so. Succeed or fail. Just saying that you can ignore the law because you have a moral problem with it is foolish.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Why is it wrong to choose who to serve or not? I assume we don't have issue with something that is NOT in public? Why the difference if we're okay in private?
    Because discriminating based on inherent characteristics violates the non-aggression principle.

    Imagine there is a black man in a town of all white people. He is the only black man. Nobody can leave the town or go anywhere else. Now the entire town is racist and refuses to serve the black man. He cannot buy property. He cannot rent property. He cannot eat. He cannot work. He is shut out from society. In this scenario, is your answer really just "well, people can choose who to serve?"

    Now if this man were a known thief and criminal, and because of that people were barring him from society, then it would be a different story. He was the initial aggressor, and must face the consequences. But that is not the case.

    The issue is that each individual has a right to participate in a free market. Discrimination based on factors like race simply violates that right.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Where is it in the Bible? Not that I do not believe that you can make religions to say anything you want. That is the same with political opinions and even science. The justification of the German extermination of the handicapped was scientifically argued. That is trivial. It is also the reason that the government should almost never be allowed to take sides in an ideological dispute like this one.
    Perhaps you missed the part where I typed "/end sarcasm."
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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