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Thread: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

  1. #371
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Same thing wrong with people making out/having sex in public. It's disruptive to society. But more than that, I'll guarantee you that people are going to stop and look, and near roads, this can cause accidents. I think if society was more comfortable with the nude form, it wouldn't be an issue, but at this point in our development, there's a public safety risk.
    Nah, that would end fairly quickly, the disruption. Look at mini skirts. Women walking around in bikini tops. People making out in public. Men holding hands (this is actually done in the mid-East, as well as men dancing together, but it's straight men. Acceptable). People would...and just IMO should...become more comfortable with the human form. And still many (most?) would not do so. I know I wouldnt. And there are logical issues of comfort that would prevent it alot too.

    Lots of things can cause disruptions that are one-offs too and are not against the law.

    There is a public health risk in nudity in many situations and that would have to be addressed and would prevent some of it too.

    One could easily argue that religious people are being discriminated against here, in that there feelings and concerned are disregarded for another groups. Also, I believe that relying on what the current law of the land is a terrible idea... (see Plessy v. Ferguson)[/QUOTE]

    Well, I provided a link and examples of why people's religious views are not justification for racism, so do you agree with the laws that overturned Jim Crow? And religious views also were used to discriminate against women for centuries.

    THe public good is served by not allowing such discrimination. Disenfranchising a contributing demographic from our society does not 'help' society. It creates classes, friction, fewer opportunities for those demographics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #372
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    In some ways, this argument reminds me of the Abortion debate. In both cases, we are talking about trumping one group of persons rights (religious objectors in this debate, women/unborn fetuses (depending on which side and your views) in the abortion debate). I understand why religious people would be upset because all they are saying is that their rights are being trumped by another group, and basically their beliefs don't matter. It's not about hate whatsoever. On the flip side, no one is forcing SSM couples from going to a particular cake establishment, they can always choose to go to someone else.

    In reality, at this moment, only one group is really being "forced" into doing something, and that's not the SSM side.
    The requirements for opening a business are very clear. No one is forced to do so if they dont like the terms. If they have a religious belief that women are unclean (orthodox Jews) are they allowed to refuse women service? I have see this discrimination first hand btw, in NYC. Not completely parallel...I was providing the service (teaching) and was asked to leave and be replaced by a man. It was legal but such beliefs exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #373
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Nah, that would end fairly quickly, the disruption. Look at mini skirts. Women walking around in bikini tops. People making out in public. Men holding hands (this is actually done in the mid-East, as well as men dancing together, but it's straight men. Acceptable). People would...and just IMO should...become more comfortable with the human form. And still many (most?) would not do so. I know I wouldnt. And there are logical issues of comfort that would prevent it alot too.

    Lots of things can cause disruptions that are one-offs too and are not against the law.

    There is a public health risk in nudity in many situations and that would have to be addressed and would prevent some of it too.

    We're not talking about an incremental change where a few inches comes off every other year from the mini skirt, we're talking full nudity. That's not something that people would settle into quickly. The whole reason it's taken us a century to go from this:

    bathingsuit-6.jpg

    to this:

    celeb-bikini-photos-kim-kardashian.jpg

    It's taken us almost two thousand years to return to this point from where we were in antiquity:

    d2c9d2b2b812f203b8d8b5b9a1a34ad2.jpg

    And by the way, the only reason the two piece bikini got it's chance was due to fabric shortage in post-war era. Without that caveat, who knows how long we would of had to wait for the bikini to make a return.

    Think of it like this: how many times have you been past the scene of an accident? Despite the fact that we've seen them multiple times, there is always people that will slow down at the scene of an accident to get a peek at what occurred. Same would happened whenever someone ran into a nude person in public for AT LEAST the first couple of times. That would end up causing a lot of accidents to say the least.

    Bottom line, we aren't Rome. American society is far, far more conservative than Rome ever was. And thus is why it wouldn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Well, I provided a link and examples of why people's religious views are not justification for racism, so do you agree with the laws that overturned Jim Crow? And religious views also were used to discriminate against women for centuries.

    THe public good is served by not allowing such discrimination. Disenfranchising a contributing demographic from our society does not 'help' society. It creates classes, friction, fewer opportunities for those demographics.
    Is our only option to base our laws on the absolutes, or worst case scenario? With Jim Crow, there wasn't another option for blacks in the south. Blacks owned businesses were few and far between, so they literally were second class citizens. But that's not the same scale that we're talking about with the cakes thing. Honestly what are we talking about? A couple of cake businesses? It's hardly like this was an epidemic of businesses turning away gays. In this case, the SSM couples had other choices. And that's the difference from the Jim Crow South is that for Blacks, there were no other choices for them. There is only one group that is being forced to do something they don't want, and that's not the discriminated party.

    Separate but Equal could of worked, if the people carrying out such laws weren't as bigoted as they were. I guess you could argue though that if they weren't bigoted to begin with, they wouldn't of needed those laws to begin with.

  4. #374
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    We're not talking about an incremental change where a few inches comes off every other year from the mini skirt, we're talking full nudity. That's not something that people would settle into quickly. The whole reason it's taken us a century to go from this:


    And by the way, the only reason the two piece bikini got it's chance was due to fabric shortage in post-war era. Without that caveat, who knows how long we would of had to wait for the bikini to make a return.

    Think of it like this: how many times have you been past the scene of an accident? Despite the fact that we've seen them multiple times, there is always people that will slow down at the scene of an accident to get a peek at what occurred. Same would happened whenever someone ran into a nude person in public for AT LEAST the first couple of times. That would end up causing a lot of accidents to say the least.

    Bottom line, we aren't Rome. American society is far, far more conservative than Rome ever was. And thus is why it wouldn't work.


    For all practical purposes (weather, discomfort, personal modesty, public health regulations) it would work fine and not be dangerous, lol. Please. And it's not killing people left and right in Scandinavia.

    Where do you live that you think it would be an abrupt change? LOL Women walk around barely covered now and the argument can be...has been...made that that is more distracting as men will attempt to imagine what's covered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #375
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Is our only option to base our laws on the absolutes, or worst case scenario? With Jim Crow, there wasn't another option for blacks in the south. Blacks owned businesses were few and far between, so they literally were second class citizens. But that's not the same scale that we're talking about with the cakes thing. Honestly what are we talking about? A couple of cake businesses? It's hardly like this was an epidemic of businesses turning away gays. In this case, the SSM couples had other choices. And that's the difference from the Jim Crow South is that for Blacks, there were no other choices for them. There is only one group that is being forced to do something they don't want, and that's not the discriminated party.

    Separate but Equal could of worked, if the people carrying out such laws weren't as bigoted as they were. I guess you could argue though that if they weren't bigoted to begin with, they wouldn't of needed those laws to begin with.

    Opinions like yours existed back then. It was a huge deal to allow blacks into white establishments. Now, in most civilized places in the US, it is not even questioned, it is the accepted norm in society. The religious? Just as outraged. The bigots? Just as outraged. Integration ended (most of) this.

    It's not about choice, it's about discrimination. Something that as I wrote, holds a segment of people back in our society and by doing that...it harms society in general.

    How would it be if people still told little girls that they werent 'acceptable' everywhere? That they couldnt do certain things, hold certain jobs? Sadly, people STILL do that to blacks and their statements show they still see it and feel the effects of it. You dont go around telling absolutely perfectly good people that they arent equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #376
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    For all practical purposes (weather, discomfort, personal modesty, public health regulations) it would work fine and not be dangerous, lol. Please. And it's not killing people left and right in Scandinavia.

    Where do you live that you think it would be an abrupt change? LOL Women walk around barely covered now and the argument can be...has been...made that that is more distracting as men will attempt to imagine what's covered.
    I live in the Bible Belt, in the South...

  7. #377
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Opinions like yours existed back then. It was a huge deal to allow blacks into white establishments. Now, in most civilized places in the US, it is not even questioned, it is the accepted norm in society. The religious? Just as outraged. The bigots? Just as outraged. Integration ended (most of) this.

    It's not about choice, it's about discrimination. Something that as I wrote, holds a segment of people back in our society and by doing that...it harms society in general.

    How would it be if people still told little girls that they werent 'acceptable' everywhere? That they couldnt do certain things, hold certain jobs? Sadly, people STILL do that to blacks and their statements show they still see it and feel the effects of it. You dont go around telling absolutely perfectly good people that they arent equal.
    You realize that the Pope didn't come out in opposition to blacks right? It wasn't like this was universal truth in the religious community that blacks were subhuman. Yes they were people who used religion as an excuse, but that's all it was, an excuse. And not one religious authorities would back up outside of the Jim Crow South.

    And you are right that it's about discrimination, the problem is that you are okay with discriminating against one group (that being the religious one) while arguing for another group (gays).

    Let me asking you a different question, had Blacks had (overall) the same education as Whites, would you still have an issue with Separate but Equal?

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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Let me asking you a different question, had Blacks had (overall) the same education as Whites, would you still have an issue with Separate but Equal?
    Yes...because *why* were they kept separate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #379
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    You realize that the Pope didn't come out in opposition to blacks right? It wasn't like this was universal truth in the religious community that blacks were subhuman. Yes they were people who used religion as an excuse, but that's all it was, an excuse. And not one religious authorities would back up outside of the Jim Crow South.

    And you are right that it's about discrimination, the problem is that you are okay with discriminating against one group (that being the religious one) while arguing for another group (gays).
    It's not discrimination. They are free to practice their religion as they see fit. If they apply for a business license thru the state, then they must abide by that. If it infringes on their beliefs, they can not open that business. There's no 'right' to do so. They have to comply with lots of state regulations...lots of them are a PIA really and DO keep some people from opening businesses (overhead from employer taxes, keeping things up to health and environmental codes, etc).

    For those that truly feel the need to live by their religious ideals, they can be part of a community like the Orthodox Jews or the Amish. A bunch of laws are different in those communities allowing them to live 'less oppressed' by others. (I said less, not completely. They are still in America).

    The govt should still never encourage the perspective that some people are 'less.' That harms society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #380
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    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's not discrimination. They are free to practice their religion as they see fit. If they apply for a business license thru the state, then they must abide by that. If it infringes on their beliefs, they can not open that business. There's no 'right' to do so. They have to comply with lots of state regulations...lots of them are a PIA really and DO keep some people from opening businesses (overhead from employer taxes, keeping things up to health and environmental codes, etc).

    For those that truly feel the need to live by their religious ideals, they can be part of a community like the Orthodox Jews or the Amish. A bunch of laws are different in those communities allowing them to live 'less oppressed' by others. (I said less, not completely. They are still in America).

    The govt should still never encourage the perspective that some people are 'less.' That harms society.
    Let's take this line of thought to it's conclusion/extreme. Do you think the Government should force Churches to conduct SSM? I would assume that the first amendment would apply here, and you would say no, but then again, they are open to the public are they not?

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