Page 12 of 42 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 415

Thread: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

  1. #111
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    "Institutionalized racism"?

    Not gonna happen. "Corporatization" will counter that very well.

    1. Areas of the country where black people couldn't rent a room for the night when traveling.

    2. Areas of the country where black people traveling couldn't buy gas from white station owners.

    3. Areas of the country where blacks couldn't eat unless they could find a black's only food establishment.

    4. And we had systematic discrimination against minorities in terms of how government functioned, such as segregated mass transit (buses, trains, etc.), schools, law enforcement, etc.

    5. Even segregation in the military.



    In those days such things were commonplace, but society has changed in the last 50 years and changed a lot. There has been a "corporatisation" where you can't spit without finding a company gas station, movie theater, restaurateur, motel/hotel, etc. Just because we repeal Public Accommodation laws, doesn't mean that things are going to go back to the way they were 3 generations ago. And there are a number of factors that impact this:

    1. We are much more mobile society. People routinely travel in a manner unprecedented then both temporary and "permanent" relocation's out of the area they grew up in.

    2. We are more informed society and information is much more available today about how a business conducts it self in term so taking care of customers we have Criag's list, Angie's list, Yelp, and a plethora of hotel, restaurant, and review sites for any type of business and it's not just the discriminated against who would choose not to associate with such a business. It includes many in the majority that would shy away from such businesses when discriminatory practices become public knowledge.

    3. The "corporatisation" of businesses in America watches the bottom line and having your "brand name" associated with and appearing to condone discrimination has a negative impact on the bottom line. With corporate owned "shops" and franchises who still fall under policies of the home office means that these businesses will not allow or condone what was going on prior to the 60's.


    **************************************************


    So the question becomes the balance of the rights of the private business owner to manage their private property according to their desires as compared to the desires of others to have access to that private business. With the widespread discrimination 3-generations ago there may have been justification to say the rights of the property owner needed to be usurped - on a temporary basis - but those times are pretty much gone. The balance was greatly tilted toward discrimination. I think of myself as a Goldwater Conservative quite a bit because Goldwater had the testicular fortitude to stand up against Fedreal Public Accommodation laws, not because he was a bigot or a racist - but because he believed in limited government.

    But in general the widespread issues from 60 years ago have been resolved by fundamental shifts in society. Sure there will be isolated instances, thats the price of liberty and dealing with your own issues. A burger joint says - I won't serve a black? OK, walk across the street to Applebee's. A photographer doesn't want to shoot a same-sex wedding? OK, Google or Angie's List another photographer in the area.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR keeping Public Accommodation laws in force in terms of the functioning of government but that is because citizens have an inherent right to equal treatment by the government. There is no such right to equal treatment by other individuals.



    >>>>
    There are places in this country though where there is only one, maybe two places to get anything, one little locally owned/ran store and a chain store that is run by the locals in town, likely owned by them too, if that. Tonopah, NV is a good example.

    Town of Tonopah Nevada - Shopping In Tonopah

    Town of Tonopah Nevada - Local Business

    Two also in Kemmerer, WY. Both locally owned.

    Grocery Stores in Kemmerer, Wyoming with Reviews & Ratings - YP.com

    The nearest other place to Kemmerer is over an hour and a half drive away. There are plenty of small towns, especially out west, that only have one drug store. There are stretches of highway where there is only one gas station with many miles in between.

    Plus, most doctors are private practices. What if the only doctor in a town refuses to see certain "types" of patients based on race, religion, sexuality, sex/gender, etc.? Afterall, private doctor, still running a business though.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #112
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I believe that was more of a prediction than an order.

    OK, now that the issue of gay marriage has been settled, maybe the country can move ahead on less pressing issues, like ISIS, income inequality, unemployment, health care, illegal immigration, you know, all of those minor issues we're facing.
    Living up to American ideals of equality under the law is not less important than those other issues. They're all important, and they all need to be solved. But I promise you, when it comes to solving economic problems like inequality or health care, the opposition is far far more potent than those who stood against marriage equality.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Forcing people to behave against their religious beliefs,when they are doing nobody physical harm is revolting, certainly.
    Forcing people to conform to your religious beliefs is far more revolting. Also, please explain how other people's marriages require you to "behave against" your religious beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I've proposed a compromise for a number of years...

    1. Pass Same-sex Civil Marriage.

    2. Repeal Public Accommodation laws that apply to private businesses

    Same Sex Couple get Civil Marriages. Businesses are not required to provide goods and services to anyone they don't want to. Public Accommodation laws would only apply to government entities and would restrict the ability of government entities to contract with or provide funds to private organizations which have a discriminatory business model.

    It's a win/win.
    That's not a win/win. That's second class citizenship and segregation against gays. I don't think you know what a compromise is. It's not getting most of what you want while providing a tiny sliver of what the other side wants, especially not when the constitution very clearly says that the other side gets everything it wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    And if you want to forcibly change their minds, you are not tolerant, you are simply an authoritarian who can't win the argument or move on when you don't.
    No one is forcibly changing anyone's minds. We're changing the law and changing commerce. Your mind is yours and yours alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Nope. The bakery was not forced to bake any cakes for or participate in any same sex weddings or other homosexual activities of any kind. They are facing consequences, socially, financially, and legally for expressing their beliefs, just as many others do all the time.
    They're facing consequences for their economic and commercial actions, not for expressing their beliefs. They can talk about their beliefs all they like. They just can't discriminate against people in the marketplace.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #113
    Sage
    Taylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    US
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:57 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,170

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    No. Gender is a protected class in every state.
    Certainly most states, but not all. Kentucky is an example of a state where sex has some, but not all, of the protections that apply to race, religion, disability, national origin, etc.

  4. #114
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,400

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR keeping Public Accommodation laws in force in terms of the functioning of government but that is because citizens have an inherent right to equal treatment by the government. There is no such right to equal treatment by other individuals.
    Businesses that are open to the public must abide by public standards. Refusing service to a group is an aggressive act - economic warfare.

    One cannot speed on the highways and one cannot wage economic warfare in public-access business.

  5. #115
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:12 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,336

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Why should white bigots be allowed to refuse to serve black customers? Why would you support bigotry like that?
    You reall do not understand how and why democracy works? Of course the government should not be allowed to punish the expression of opinions. Maybe thinking about what makes democracy a more efficient instrument than dictatorship.

  6. #116
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:12 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,336

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Nobody forced them to do anything. They took it upon themselves to serve the public.
    The problem with that type of logic is that in power you can justify just about anything, which is fine, if you or someone of your ideology are in power.

    If not, it is you that goes to jail.

  7. #117
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Last Seen
    06-13-15 @ 10:52 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,460

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    If I am Jewish, can I refuse to serve someone who has a swastika on their face?
    Yes. It's not a protected class like gender, race etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

  8. #118
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:12 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,336

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Except it wasn't "expressing their views," it was denying service in a business that holds out to the public in violation of public accommodation laws. It's the same reason the government would punish you for a "No Blacks" sign.
    It is an expression of a view to refuse to support a ceremony of what the people believe to be evil. That I do not agree with their belief is totally irrelevant.

  9. #119
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:12 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,336

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    What about forcing them to adhere to your religious beliefs? I guess it is off-topic to refer to a medical procedure but to keep it on marriage....why should people be allowed to force others to conform to their religious beliefs about marriage when they dont believe them?
    I am not sure I follow. But it seems to me to be one thing, if someone does not support a ceremony of what they believe to be evil and allowing the government to force them to do so.

  10. #120
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:12 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,336

    Re: Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They can express their opinions. And if they really dont want to serve a particular demographic....do so. I think they should...then the public can clearly see and make their own buying decisions.

    However there is a difference between expressing opinion and refusing service based on discrimination.
    Refusing service is an expression of belief. And forbidding the expression is similar to forbidding people to say "Hail Hitler!". It is anti democratic. If you do not like somebody's expression of belief then demonstrate, scream at him. But do not give government the authority to prevent him expressing his view. That is absolutely irresponsible and stands in scary contrast to what had made the US exceptional in the past.

Page 12 of 42 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •