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Thread: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Yeah? you're a US/Canadian citizen - you can do whatever the heck you want...
    My freedoms as a U.S. citizen have absolutely no bearing on my assessment of the likely outcome in Hong Kong. I just don't see the Chinese government reversing its basic position based on how it defines its interests, goals, and needs. Symbolic or cosmetic concessions might be feasible, but fundamental ones appear very unlikely.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    My freedoms as a U.S. citizen have absolutely no bearing on my assessment of the likely outcome in Hong Kong. I just don't see the Chinese government reversing its basic position based on how it defines its interests, goals, and needs. Symbolic or cosmetic concessions might be feasible, but fundamental ones appear very unlikely.
    You are their interest.....

    Think about it...

    If you really want to get bold then go to North Korea.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. the government was not threatened at Kent State, the guardsmen were, and so your attempt to draw a parallel to it is invalid.
    2. the government was (somewhat) threatened in the response to Kent State, and it did not many any of the decisions that you claim it would
    Jackson state in 1970, guardsmen fired on the crowd and killed innocents. You are drawing distinctions where there are none. The fact remains American armed forces HAVE fired on protesters. The Hong Kong police have never done such a thing (yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've run into the "oh, any government would do that" excuse on the part of CCP apologists before in the Tiananmen discussions, however, I admit, I don't know that I've ever seen a resident of Hong Kong use it. That's interesting.
    I'm no CCP apologist, but Hong Kong is not Beijing. And yes, any government would do what the hong kong police did. American police routinely use tear gas and pepper spray on unsanctioned demonstrations. Happened in Ferguson just a few weeks ago. They did it to the occupy protesters in wall street. If you protest without a permit and block streets and disrupt public life, every government on earth will use things like tear gas or pepper spray to try to restore order.

    If the Hong Kong police start shooting live rounds, then I will change my tone. Until then, they haven't done anything to warrant a comparison with Tiananmen and only have responded in the way every other metropolitan police force would.

    However, the claim is and remains false. Every couple of years like clockwork we toss out portions of our government, and had Obama lost in 2008, he would not have even had the realistic ability to attempt to protect himself with a military that simply would have refused to follow orders had he done so.

    And if they did, well, we have a second Amendment.
    No one here is trying to over throw the government. Your point however, remains invalid. Lets not forget about the civil war, where the federal government literally went to war to prevent a section of their country from trying to leave. I just find it amusing that there are multiple instances of where the military actually has killed protesting civilians in the US, while there are zero such instances in Hong Kong. Yet you are the one insisting it can't happen?


    I admit I'm not sure. I am sure that (for example) shooting someone who is engaged in armed robbery has nothing whatsoever to do with "gunning people down in the streets to maintain the administrations' power".
    How many innocent people or unarmed people have been killed by the police, just this year, that we got on video. Again, I have to laugh. I don't think the police in Hong Kong have gunned down anyone in years. There are two videos of the police shooting unarmed people in the USA just this week. Like I said, you seem to be throwing a lot of stones for someone who lives in a place where the police regularly take the lives of citizens. That does NOT happen here.


    Push has come to shove. Our government doesn't shoot protesters. They will shoot back at rioters on occasion who devolve into violence. But we have how many major protests a year? Yeesh, did you see any of the anti-Bush anti-war protests? The Battle in Seattle? Occupy Idiocy?

    Yup.
    You shot protesters at kent state. And at jackson state. Hong Kong has ZERO such incidents. Your government shoots 400 citizens a year without trial. The police here almost never shoot anyone. You can argue they are all rioters or criminals, but we actually have video evidence to prove that many of these people were not a threat or were not doing anything to warrant getting shot. You come from a place where there are more instances of police shooting unarmed people on video than there are instances of the police shooting anyone, bank robbers and gangsters included, here.

    And the Economic Freedom Index. It's amazing what a little libertarianism can do for you.
    Yes, but none of that had anything to do with democracy. Democracy is not equivalent to proper governance. Proper governance does not require democracy.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    BBC News - Hong Kong: Tear gas and clashes at democracy protest

    Thoughts? I think it quite unlikely China will back down on this issue.
    Think I'm glad I'm not the political leadership of China. Rock, meet hard spot.
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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I agree with you. I was in Beijing at the time the White Paper on Hong Kong was released in June and it seemed pretty clear that the Chinese government's views were pretty much set in place. Some symbolic concessions such as increased public input might be offered, but I would be very surprised if direct and open elections are permitted. If the Chinese government were to yield, it would very likely be confronted with a whole range of other challenges, so I just don't see an appetite for great flexibility.
    Xi has put himself in a tough position. His anti-corruption campaign and consolidation of power has no doubt made him many enemies who are just waiting for him to mess up. He can't afford to have PLA soldiers shooting people in the streets of Hong Kong. At the same time, he certainly cannot afford to have protests like this popping up in the Mainland. There is simply no way he can back down now. I think we have already seen his next move, as he summoned all the wealthy tycoons of Hong Kong to Beijing for a photo opportunity and a pep talk. As usual, money talks and he hopes by putting economic pressure on those with a vested interest in the status quo in Hong Kong, he can make the business and political community here bring an end to the protests. It will probably work. I know many a banker who aren't happy with the traffic and the market's performance today.

    Let's also not forget Xi is very much in the Putin mold, and has made numerous hints that he believes the Soviet Union fell because the leaders didn't have the heart to stamp out the opposition in 89 and 90. He may be in a lose-lose position, but I think it's clear he will go the Tiananmen route before he will concede to pro-democracy activists.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    Xi has put himself in a tough position. His anti-corruption campaign and consolidation of power has no doubt made him many enemies who are just waiting for him to mess up. He can't afford to have PLA soldiers shooting people in the streets of Hong Kong. At the same time, he certainly cannot afford to have protests like this popping up in the Mainland. There is simply no way he can back down now. I think we have already seen his next move, as he summoned all the wealthy tycoons of Hong Kong to Beijing for a photo opportunity and a pep talk. As usual, money talks and he hopes by putting economic pressure on those with a vested interest in the status quo in Hong Kong, he can make the business and political community here bring an end to the protests. It will probably work. I know many a banker who aren't happy with the traffic and the market's performance today.

    Let's also not forget Xi is very much in the Putin mold, and has made numerous hints that he believes the Soviet Union fell because the leaders didn't have the heart to stamp out the opposition in 89 and 90. He may be in a lose-lose position, but I think it's clear he will go the Tiananmen route before he will concede to pro-democracy activists.
    In lose-lose situations, it generally pays to do something confusing that makes it hard for observers to tell who won and who lost.
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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    Xi has put himself in a tough position. His anti-corruption campaign and consolidation of power has no doubt made him many enemies who are just waiting for him to mess up. He can't afford to have PLA soldiers shooting people in the streets of Hong Kong. At the same time, he certainly cannot afford to have protests like this popping up in the Mainland. There is simply no way he can back down now. I think we have already seen his next move, as he summoned all the wealthy tycoons of Hong Kong to Beijing for a photo opportunity and a pep talk. As usual, money talks and he hopes by putting economic pressure on those with a vested interest in the status quo in Hong Kong, he can make the business and political community here bring an end to the protests. It will probably work. I know many a banker who aren't happy with the traffic and the market's performance today.

    Let's also not forget Xi is very much in the Putin mold, and has made numerous hints that he believes the Soviet Union fell because the leaders didn't have the heart to stamp out the opposition in 89 and 90. He may be in a lose-lose position, but I think it's clear he will go the Tiananmen route before he will concede to pro-democracy activists.
    I love communists/socialists, they believe their failures are everyone elses fault...

    Nice post BTW.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    The Soviets fell because socialism doesn't grow economy. Afghanistan destroyed the Soviet Union - the cost of war destroyed them.

    Sorry to the socialists but war cost money and socialism doesn't grow capital.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The Soviets fell because socialism doesn't grow economy. Afghanistan destroyed the Soviet Union - the cost of war destroyed them.

    Sorry to the socialists but war cost money and socialism doesn't grow capital.
    Not really sure how you can say that with a straight face given Communist China has been growing at 8% for two decades now.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    Not really sure how you can say that with a straight face given Communist China has been growing at 8% for two decades now.
    The Chinese aren't communist/socialist - they're authoritarian..

    Do you understand this?

    Oh, and China is eating our debt (buying bonds) like ****ing pac man.

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