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Thread: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    I live in Hong Kong at the moment.

    Here is some reading so you can educate yourself.

    Hong Kong Basic Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Capital punishment in Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Nice, it's amazing how you even got on this server.....

    How many cartoon cops did you have to get through to get here?

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Nice, it's amazing how you even got on this server.....

    How many cartoon cops did you have to get through to get here?
    Hong Kong has an open and free press. Did you read my link on the basic law? Freedom of speech and freedom of press are enshrined in the Basic Law. It doesn't seem like you know very much about Hong Kong, to be honest.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    Hong Kong has an open and free press. Did you read my link on the basic law? Freedom of speech and freedom of press are enshrined in the Basic Law. It doesn't seem like you know very much about Hong Kong, to be honest.
    Ok "Tank Man" you're delusional....

    I don't know who you are but you're not "free."

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Ok "Tank Man" you're delusional....

    I don't know who you are but you're not "free."
    None of us are free. If push comes to shove my government, your government and every one else's government would gun them down in the streets to maintain their power. But in terms of legal liberties, Hong Kong is on par with most western democracies and miles ahead of the mainland. The only substantive freedom you have that we don't is the right to vote. A right most American's don't exercise, and which hasn't prevented your government from spying on you, shooting tear gas in your face, or running the country in an incompetent manner.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    None of us are free. If push comes to shove my government, your government and every one else's government would gun them down in the streets to maintain their power.
    Ah, no, actually. One of the benefits of our political system is that our government would not do that, and that' its' military would refuse to do so, if ordered. You lose the election, your butt is out.

    But in terms of legal liberties, Hong Kong is on par with most western democracies and miles ahead of the mainland. The only substantive freedom you have that we don't is the right to vote. A right most American's don't exercise, and which hasn't prevented your government from spying on you, shooting tear gas in your face, or running the country in an incompetent manner.
    Hong Kong's liberties are degrading - hence the protests (incidentally, yes, there are protests across mainland China. The government simply downplays them, and often the protests are to the central government about local officials)


    All in all, my second main take-away from this is that I wonder what the play on this is in Taiwan.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    None of us are free. If push comes to shove my government, your government and every one else's government would gun them down in the streets to maintain their power. But in terms of legal liberties, Hong Kong is on par with most western democracies and miles ahead of the mainland. The only substantive freedom you have that we don't is the right to vote. A right most American's don't exercise, and which hasn't prevented your government from spying on you, shooting tear gas in your face, or running the country in an incompetent manner.
    BS..... I don't believe on word you post...

    **** my government - I hate them all - at least I can say it tho.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah, no, actually. One of the benefits of our political system is that our government would not do that, and that' its' military would refuse to do so, if ordered. You lose the election, your butt is out.
    You mean like kent state? How many American's are killed by the police each year? 400? I don't think the police in Hong Kong have killed that many people in the last half century. You are deluded if you think your government would not shoot on protesters if push came to shove.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hong Kong's liberties are degrading - hence the protests.
    That's not the reason for the protests. This has been a long time building. The people of HK were promised universal suffrage in the 2017 election. They got universal suffrage, but the Chinese added the caveat that any candidate has to be approved by a council, the majority of which is pro-beijing. Hong Kong has never had democracy, under British or Chinese rule. And yet it is still a rich, liberal country that puts most western democracies, the USA included, to shame on when it comes to the Human Development Index.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    All in all, my second main take-away from this is that I wonder what the play on this is in Taiwan.
    Taiwan is in a fundamentally different position from Hong Kong. Hong Kong is a world financial center in large part because of it's ties with the Mainland. The Taiwanese see closer economic ties with the mainland as a threat to their own autonomy and independence (see the April protests in Taipei). Of course, Taiwanese students are in favor of the Hong Kong protesters because they are protesting actions taken by Beijing.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    I think it quite unlikely China will back down on this issue.
    I agree with you. I was in Beijing at the time the White Paper on Hong Kong was released in June and it seemed pretty clear that the Chinese government's views were pretty much set in place. Some symbolic concessions such as increased public input might be offered, but I would be very surprised if direct and open elections are permitted. If the Chinese government were to yield, it would very likely be confronted with a whole range of other challenges, so I just don't see an appetite for great flexibility.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizuho View Post
    You mean like kent state?
    1. the government was not threatened at Kent State, the guardsmen were, and so your attempt to draw a parallel to it is invalid.
    2. the government was (somewhat) threatened in the response to Kent State, and it did not many any of the decisions that you claim it would.

    I've run into the "oh, any government would do that" excuse on the part of CCP apologists before in the Tiananmen discussions, however, I admit, I don't know that I've ever seen a resident of Hong Kong use it. That's interesting.

    However, the claim is and remains false. Every couple of years like clockwork we toss out portions of our government, and had Obama lost in 2008, he would not have even had the realistic ability to attempt to protect himself with a military that simply would have refused to follow orders had he done so.

    And if they did, well, we have a second Amendment.

    How many American's are killed by the police each year? 400?
    I admit I'm not sure. I am sure that (for example) shooting someone who is engaged in armed robbery has nothing whatsoever to do with "gunning people down in the streets to maintain the administrations' power".

    I don't think the police in Hong Kong have killed that many people in the last half century. You are deluded if you think your government would not shoot on protesters if push came to shove.
    Push has come to shove. Our government doesn't shoot protesters. They will shoot back at rioters on occasion who devolve into violence. But we have how many major protests a year? Yeesh, did you see any of the anti-Bush anti-war protests? The Battle in Seattle? Occupy Idiocy?

    That's not the reason for the protests. This has been a long time building. The people of HK were promised universal suffrage in the 2017 election. They got universal suffrage, but the Chinese added the caveat that any candidate has to be approved by a council, the majority of which is pro-beijing.
    Yup.

    Hong Kong has never had democracy, under British or Chinese rule. And yet it is still a rich, liberal country that puts most western democracies, the USA included, to shame on when it comes to the Human Development Index.
    And the Economic Freedom Index. It's amazing what a little libertarianism can do for you.

    Taiwan is in a fundamentally different position from Hong Kong.
    One of PRC's pitches to ROC is that they will have the option of choosing a special status like Hong Kongs'. I would bet that the Taiwanese are watching Hong Kong developments very closely.

    Taiwan’s pro-independence movement and the government hardly see eye to eye, but thanks to Chinese President Xi Jinping, both sides are singing the same tune: no to “one country, two systems.”

    In remarks delivered at a meeting with pro-unification delegates from Taiwan on Friday, Mr. Xi said China took “a firm and unwavering stance” on reunification with Taiwan. He went on to say that the best way to resolve lingering animosity across the Taiwan Strait was to employ the “one country, two systems” framework that governs Beijing’s relationships with Hong Kong and Macau....
    It would be interesting to see if the CCP is able to breathe past their fear of internal instability enough to realize they are having potentially net negative strategic effects.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-28-14 at 11:56 PM.

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    Re: Hong Kong police clash with pro-democracy demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I agree with you. I was in Beijing at the time the White Paper on Hong Kong was released in June and it seemed pretty clear that the Chinese government's views were pretty much set in place. Some symbolic concessions such as increased public input might be offered, but I would be very surprised if direct and open elections are permitted. If the Chinese government were to yield, it would very likely be confronted with a whole range of other challenges, so I just don't see an appetite for great flexibility.
    Yeah? you're a US/Canadian citizen - you can do whatever the heck you want...

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