• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

Lursa said:
My my my. I'm getting the third degree here. I'm not playing. If you dont like my 'opinion' and my statements on what I saw, you can ignore them.

I also said possibly 'impaired.' I did not, nor do I now, consider his actions seen on the video as remotely the normal actions of an adult in a retail store.
Click to expand...

Lursa, I have been very polite to you. I have not insulted you or attacked you. I merely asked you to explain what facts your opinion was based on.

If you think that's a "third degree", I disagree.
 
roguenuke said:
He may have seen something wrong. We just don't know what kind of view he had. Plus, people do get things wrong. Our brains can convince us we see things that didn't actually happen, only what we think is happening or might have happened. This is why eyewitness accounts of events are being seen as less reliable than they have been in the past. People aren't necessarily lying about what they saw, because they believe they saw it, they just really didn't.
Click to expand...

I don't think he was lying. I just think he was incredibly wrong, and his misperceptions led to a tragedy
 
sangha said:
I see that sort of thing in stores all the time. Someone on the phone with their spouse asking which brand of toilet paper to buy, etc
Click to expand...

Usually, if you are asking which brand to buy, you are also picking them up to check them out, not just staring at them. But the point is, to other people, this can appear to be odd behavior, particularly if the person has a weapon in their hand. Our brains are odd. We may consider things that would go unnoticed otherwise strange when those things/behaviors are coupled with other out of place behaviors, such as carrying a weapon/gun around a store.
 
roguenuke said:
He may have seen something wrong. We just don't know what kind of view he had. Plus, people do get things wrong. Our brains can convince us we see things that didn't actually happen, only what we think is happening or might have happened. This is why eyewitness accounts of events are being seen as less reliable than they have been in the past. People aren't necessarily lying about what they saw, because they believe they saw it, they just really didn't.
Click to expand...

Exactly, add in that the caller was far away, and likely in fear and it gets even more difficult.
I dont expect people who call 911 to report a man with a gun in a store to know the full story-frankly thats not their job.
 
sangha said:
Specifically, which specific actions of Crawford's suggest mental illness.
Click to expand...

You need help with that?

1. Thinking it's a good idea to walk around with an air gun that looks like a firearm.
2. Picking up an air gun left out at Walmart and walking around with it.
3. Any sort of swinging it about or even having the barrel pointed in any direction other than 'safe'.
4. Not immediately dropping the gun when confronted by police with weapons drawn.

The whole thing is like a kid that didn't understand what was going on and thought he was being arrested for shoplifting.
 
Last edited:
sangha said:
I don't think he was lying. I just think he was incredibly wrong, and his misperceptions led to a tragedy
Click to expand...

And unfortunately it is part of being human. That man will likely have to live with his bad reporting on what was going on for the rest of his life, as the police officer will have to deal with killing someone who likely was just a victim of bad circumstances, including his bad decision to pick up a rifle and walk around a store with it out, swinging it back and forth. That in itself is not normal behavior. The majority of people would not think it was okay to do this and not have someone scared by those actions. Scared people are not rational. Then their irrationality can lead to others getting bad information. If that bad information is believable it can be tragic.

It doesn't even have to be a situation of someone being scared really, just overly stressful. When I broke my nose, the report that went out to the watch officer was that I had been sucked into the seawater valve. That isn't even possible, which is a good thing, since a report like that could have caused many other problems had it been possible to do. Did the guy who reported it mean to cause a panic or say something like that? No. But people aren't always rational or don't completely consider what they are saying during stressful situations.
 
ecofarm said:
You need help with that?

1. Thinking it's a good idea to walk around with an air gun that looks like a firearm.
2. Picking up an air gun left out at Walmart and walking around with it.
3. Any sort of swinging it about or even having the barrel pointed in any direction other than 'safe'.
4. Not immediately dropping the gun when confronted by police with weapons drawn.

The whole thing is like a kid that didn't understand what was going on and thought he was being arrested for shoplifting.
Click to expand...

1) In a store that sells them? Nothing odd about it and certainly not a sign of mental illness or impairment.

2) Same as #1

3) Not very bright, but not odd nor a sign of mental illness or impairment

4) He was putting the gun down when he was shot.
 
roguenuke said:
And unfortunately it is part of being human. That man will likely have to live with his bad reporting on what was going on for the rest of his life, as the police officer will have to deal with killing someone who likely was just a victim of bad circumstances, including his bad decision to pick up a rifle and walk around a store with it out, swinging it back and forth. That in itself is not normal behavior. The majority of people would not think it was okay to do this and not have someone scared by those actions. Scared people are not rational. Then their irrationality can lead to others getting bad information. If that bad information is believable it can be tragic.

It doesn't even have to be a situation of someone being scared really, just overly stressful. When I broke my nose, the report that went out to the watch officer was that I had been sucked into the seawater valve. That isn't even possible, which is a good thing, since a report like that could have caused many other problems had it been possible to do. Did the guy who reported it mean to cause a panic or say something like that? No. But people aren't always rational or don't completely consider what they are saying during stressful situations.
Click to expand...

Sure, people are people and stress and emotion can color their perceptions. My focus is on the police and their response, which is supposed to be based on a professional assessment of the facts. IMO, the officer who fired the first shot was incompetent.
 
sangha said:
Sure, people are people and stress and emotion can color their perceptions. My focus is on the police and their response, which is supposed to be based on a professional assessment of the facts. IMO, the officer who fired the first shot was incompetent.
Click to expand...

Police are still people. They were getting information that they thought was accurate and what do they see when they arrive? A man holding a gun right where they were told he would be. Why would they have any reason to think that the information they were getting wasn't true? What indication did they have that the info was inaccurate? You have no proof/evidence that the officer who fired the first shot was incompetent at all. You are basing that off of your personal feelings. Obviously, the grand jury doesn't agree with you.
 
roguenuke said:
Police are still people.
Click to expand...

And like every other professional, they are held to professional standards at work

They were getting information that they thought was accurate
Click to expand...

If they believe what they were told over the phone without independently verifying it, then that is incompetence.

and what do they see when they arrive? A man holding a gun right where they were told he would be. Why would they have any reason to think that the information they were getting wasn't true? What indication did they have that the info was inaccurate?
Click to expand...

They're job is not to believe anything anyone tells them until it's proven wrong.

You have no proof/evidence that the officer who fired the first shot was incompetent at all. You are basing that off of your personal feelings. Obviously, the grand jury doesn't agree with you.
Click to expand...

No, I'm basing it off the recording which shows Crawford putting the weapon down less than a second after the officer orders him to put the gun down, and then get shot before he has enough time to do so.
 
sangha said:
And like every other professional, they are held to professional standards at work

If they believe what they were told over the phone without independently verifying it, then that is incompetence.

They're job is not to believe anything anyone tells them until it's proven wrong.

No, I'm basing it off the recording which shows Crawford putting the weapon down less than a second after the officer orders him to put the gun down, and then get shot before he has enough time to do so.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't incompetence. It is verified by the fact that the guy had a gun in public, obviously being careless with it. They could see that. Then he didn't drop the gun when ordered to.

Their job is to protect everyone with the information they have. I didn't see him putting the weapon down until after the first shot was heard. And as I said, apparently neither did the Grand Jury since they deemed that the officer should not be indicted for anything here.
 
Lursa said:
Loading them is actually kind of a PIA and annoying if you are used to shooting other types of guns, lol.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. Especially a Crosman pump, which is what the one in this story was. They are a huge pita, and like I said, if you aren't familiar with them, you'd have hell trying to figure out the sequence for loading, and how the 5-pellet clip is inserted. I have a good bit of experience with this type of pellet rifle. It's a pain in the ass.
 
roguenuke said:
No, it isn't incompetence.
Click to expand...

Yes it is not only incompetence. It also goes against basic standard procedures for investigating an incident.

It is verified by the fact that the guy had a gun in public, obviously being careless with it.
Click to expand...

The only thing that is verified by seeing the guy with the gun is that there's a guy with a gun. It does not verify that he waved it at anyone or that he was behaving aggresively or threatening anyone. The only way an officer can confirm that he is behaving aggressively or threatening is by observing the man acting aggressively or threateningly.

And there was nothing careless about Crawfords behavior while the police are there except until after he is shot. If you believe differently, I would appreciate it if you would point out the specific behavior that you think was careless and note the time on the video

Here's a link to the video
Beavercreek Walmart shooting: Grand jury returns no indictments | www.whio.com

They could see that. Then he didn't drop the gun when ordered to.
Click to expand...

He was dropping the gun but they shot him less than a second after telling him to drop the gun.

Their job is to protect everyone with the information they have. I didn't see him putting the weapon down until after the first shot was heard. And as I said, apparently neither did the Grand Jury since they deemed that the officer should not be indicted for anything here.
Click to expand...

You are wrong. He is clearly leaning down and towards his right to put the weapon on the ground when the officer shoots him.

And the GJ said nothing about that. It's not their job to make such pronouncements. They have a limited task - judge if there's enough evidence to prosecute someone for a crime. That's it.
 
The man who called 911 is the only person who was impaired and/or has a mental disability. Does anyone know if the caller was drug tested? At best he has a disability which prevents him from seeing and being able to ascertain what's happening in the real world because of hallucinations. At worse he's a sociopath who deliberately escalated this situation that lead to an innocent person's death.
 
sangha said:
1) In a store that sells them? Nothing odd about it and certainly not a sign of mental illness or impairment.

2) Same as #1

3) Not very bright, but not odd nor a sign of mental illness or impairment

4) He was putting the gun down when he was shot.
Click to expand...
Well, no, not really. At least not in this part of the country. In a gun store, you wont typically see anyone walking around swinging a gun around. They will look at the gun at the counter, in the presence of the salesman. They may inspect the action or the barrel, but they usually hand it back to the salesman, and pay for it, then leave the store, or finish their shopping, then pick the gun up on the way out the door. His behavior wasn't typical of a serious gun owner.
 
lizzie said:
Well, no, not really. At least not in this part of the country. In a gun store, you wont typically see anyone walking around swinging a gun around. They will look at the gun at the counter, in the presence of the salesman. They may inspect the action or the barrel, but they usually hand it back to the salesman, and pay for it, then leave the store, or finish their shopping, then pick the gun up on the way out the door. His behavior wasn't typical of a serious gun owner.
Click to expand...

In gun stores, when the employee hands you a weapon to look at, he sticks with you until you give it back. They don't keep rifles laying around either.

IOW, this wasn't a gun store and not being a serious gun owner is not a capital crime or a threat to the public
 
lizzie said:
Well, no, not really. At least not in this part of the country. In a gun store, you wont typically see anyone walking around swinging a gun around. They will look at the gun at the counter, in the presence of the salesman. They may inspect the action or the barrel, but they usually hand it back to the salesman, and pay for it, then leave the store, or finish their shopping, then pick the gun up on the way out the door. His behavior wasn't typical of a serious gun owner.
Click to expand...

In every gun store I've been in, that's true...and ALL the ammo is behind a counter.

In Cabelas and ProBassShops, the ammo is out in the aisles, but the guns are in cases and no way are you walking around with them. Same at our Fred Meyers and Walmart.

Ammo and guns are not available *together* in any place I've seen. Seems like air guns and pellets may have been a 'loop hole' up to now.
 
sangha said:
In gun stores, when the employee hands you a weapon to look at, he sticks with you until you give it back. They don't keep rifles laying around either.

IOW, this wasn't a gun store and not being a serious gun owner is not a capital crime or a threat to the public
Click to expand...
true but you seemed to be saying his behavior was usual, and it wasn't.
 
lizzie said:
true but you seemed to be saying his behavior was usual, and it wasn't.
Click to expand...

His behavior was not "the norm", but it in no way indicates mental illness, intoxication, lack of capacity or any sort of threat or intimidation.
 
sangha said:
His behavior was not "the norm", but it in no way indicates mental illness, intoxication, lack of capacity or any sort of threat or intimidation.
Click to expand...

It was concerning enough for someone to call 911. Is he wrong too? I mean, he was there, he described actions, like fumbling and trying to load a gun and pointing it at people. He was there, as were the police. Their perceptions are at least worth considering, even if you choose to judge what you see and hear on a video.
 
Lursa said:
It was concerning enough for someone to call 911. Is he wrong too? I mean, he was there, he described actions, like fumbling and trying to load a gun and pointing it at people. He was there, as were the police. Their perceptions are at least worth considering, even if you choose to judge what you see and hear on a video.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but a Walmart associate had alerted management, and a manager was already en route to the goofy kid to let him know he couldn't walk around the store waving a gun around. Anyone who says this is perfectly normal behavior is simply arguing for the sake of it, or political points. Clearly, this was far, far from normal behavior.
 
reinoe said:
The man who called 911 is the only person who was impaired and/or has a mental disability. Does anyone know if the caller was drug tested? At best he has a disability which prevents him from seeing and being able to ascertain what's happening in the real world because of hallucinations. At worse he's a sociopath who deliberately escalated this situation that lead to an innocent person's death.
Click to expand...

Actually, this is not true at all. People in stressful situations, without any drugs or impairments, have been shown to see things that didn't happen. Many times they see what they expect to see instead of what actually happens, which is why eye witness accounts are becoming less reliable as evidence.

It is possible that he lied on purpose, but that would have to be proven, not just speculated. It is also possible that he could be on drugs or have some mental impairment, however, that isn't the only possibility.
 
reinoe said:
The man who called 911 is the only person who was impaired and/or has a mental disability. Does anyone know if the caller was drug tested? At best he has a disability which prevents him from seeing and being able to ascertain what's happening in the real world because of hallucinations. At worse he's a sociopath who deliberately escalated this situation that lead to an innocent person's death.
Click to expand...

That witness is now admitting he lied.

Walmart Shooting: Lone 911 Caller Admits Lie, Crawford Never Pointed 'Gun'

Ritchie also told the 911 operator that he saw Crawford loading bullets into the supposed weapon, which clearly would have been impossible given that the toy was not a real gun.

But now Ritchie is telling a very different story. In an interview with The Guardian newspaper Sunday, Ritchie said that “at no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody."


In his round of media interviews, Ritchie told reporters that he was “an ex-Marine.”

The truth is that Ritchie was expelled from the Marine Corps after just seven weeks because his enlistment was determined to be “fraudulent.” Ritchie now says that the debacle was simply the result of bad paperwork.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom