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Thread: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

  1. #331
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If openly carrying a weapon in public is enough to give police the excuse to kill someone (after the police gave him a generous second or two to comply with their order or be killed), I might if I lived in Ohio work to repeal open carry laws. It's a bit unbelievable that several seem willing to attribute bad motives to the person for what is legal to do in Ohio.

    And I agree about the 'audience' at Walmart. It's why I don't support open carry laws, and don't support concealed carry for people without a demonstrated need for a firearm. It's not that I'm scared of guns or gun owners - been around both my entire life, and own and shoot rifles, pistols and shotguns regularly. It's because it's impossible to tell at a glance if a person with an AR slung over his shoulder is a good or bad guy, or just picked up the rifle that morning and can't reliably operate the safety. Same with that guy with a Glock on his hip. For all I know, he's a drunk and just broke up with his girlfriend and will shoot the first person who crosses him. I'm not comfortable with weapons wielding total strangers. Mistakes with firearms are often deadly.

    But if a state is open carry, the police are obligated to respect the law and not shoot a person dead for doing nothing illegal, and only arguably unsafe. The response to unsafe is "Cut the crap - learn how to handle your weapon elsewhere!" Not calling the SWAT team and them issuing an order that cannot reasonably be met then killing the person when that order isn't met.
    This is not reality. And he wasn't shot and killed for just open carrying. He was open carrying a gun, unsafely and in a place that raised suspicions about his intentions. Although legal, it is still can cause issues that ultimately can, and in this case did, lead to someone getting killed.
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  2. #332
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, the caller "maybe believed" he was an ex-Marine. He "maybe believed" the fraudulent facts he wrote on his application to the Marines. He "maybe believed" that the guy was loading the gun. He "maybe believed" the gun was pointed at two kids.
    I believed the guy was trying to load the gun because on the video, it looks that way to me. I have no idea what made him believe (if he truly did) that the guy was pointing the gun at some kids. The Marines thing is an after-the-fact issue, not connected to the phone call at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with the situation besides some people trying to use it to discredit the guy's character. It doesn't in any way prove that the guy lied to the 911 operator. It really doesn't show anything.
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  3. #333
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I believed the guy was trying to load the gun because on the video, it looks that way to me. I have no idea what made him believe (if he truly did) that the guy was pointing the gun at some kids. The Marines thing is an after-the-fact issue, not connected to the phone call at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with the situation besides some people trying to use it to discredit the guy's character. It doesn't in any way prove that the guy lied to the 911 operator. It really doesn't show anything.
    Wrong. It shows why the police should not believe or rely on the reports of civilian eyewitnesses
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  4. #334
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I guess we can't evaluate evidence that we haven't seen, but the video synced with the audio is better evidence than in 99% of similar incidents.

    And what we do KNOW is an innocent person posing no actual threat and breaking no law, who threatened no individual, stalked no one, pointed the gun directly at no one, minding his business in a deserted corner of Walmart talking on the phone, is dead.
    Now you are presenting an opinion contrary to what we can view on the video. I guess it's perfectly acceptable for you to embellish the facts, but entirely egregious when the 911 caller appears to do the same. Tsk tsk.

  5. #335
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I'm saying that we simply don't know his intention in what he said, even when it was wrong. The caller does hold culpability here too, but I have no idea what he should have done differently.
    Tell the truth. He could have simply told the police the truth that we all saw as we watched the video. Crawford was not threatening anyone. Crawford didn't point the "gun" at anyone.

    If he thought he saw Crawford doing these things, he wasn't looking at Crawford.
    We cannot say what he truly believed he saw while watching Crawford. I would definitely not have told him to get closer or talk to someone with what the caller is claiming. If he really didn't see any of what he reported happened, then he shouldn't have reported it as such.
    If what you believe isn't what's happening, doesn't that make you at the very least, crazy?
    But I can say what Crawford should have done differently. And that is he shouldn't not have been walking around a store with a BB gun, swinging it around as if no one would feel threatened. He should not have been so completely oblivious to what was going on around him that he doesn't even notice police officers coming up on him until his first reaction, even if only small, ends up being perceived as a threat. The cops could have possibly used other force, but they were dealing with what they believed (because they had information that said that he appeared to load the rifle in the store and that he had "aimed" it at other people) could have been a mass shooter.
    1 - Show me where in the video (outside of the caller who is clearly not seeing correctly) does anyone feel threatened by Crawford. Show me in the video where Crawford behaved in a threatening manner.
    2 - Crawford, and any person not doing anything illegal, shouldn't need to live in a state of fear that his or her actions may be perceived as threatening. It's not the responsibility of law abiding citizens to be ever-vigilant of other people's fears.
    3 - No one, not engaging in any illegal activity, should be walking around prepared to react when cops arrive on the scene. This points back to point 2.
    4 - No... the cops should not be using ANY force against a person who's not threatening them or others in the public.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is not reality. And he wasn't shot and killed for just open carrying. He was open carrying a gun, unsafely and in a place that raised suspicions about his intentions. Although legal, it is still can cause issues that ultimately can, and in this case did, lead to someone getting killed.
    It's really that simple. Why some feel the need to continue this Kabuki dance, is beyond me. Tragic, yes. Mystifying, no.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is not reality. And he wasn't shot and killed for just open carrying. He was open carrying a gun, unsafely and in a place that raised suspicions about his intentions. Although legal, it is still can cause issues that ultimately can, and in this case did, lead to someone getting killed.
    I assume you mean it's not "reality" to expect other Walmart patrons and/or police to not assume a person legally carrying a rifle is an imminent threat warranting the SWAT team response. If that's not reality, then Ohio has no business with an open carry law. If carrying a rifle in Walmart is suspicious, and police assume anyone doing this entirely legal act is a mad man who gets one second to prove he's not before killing him, then it shouldn't be legal to carry a rifle in Walmart. And of course I don't think it should be legal to do.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Now you are presenting an opinion contrary to what we can view on the video. I guess it's perfectly acceptable for you to embellish the facts, but entirely egregious when the 911 caller appears to do the same. Tsk tsk.
    What facts did I embellish?

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What facts did I embellish?
    All of them?

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The first guy isn't holding the gun at all. No hands on the weapon, not swinging it around. The second guy, same thing. They don't have any hands on those weapons. It has absolutely nothing to do with their skin color and everything to do with the situation, what they are doing with the weapon.
    No comment on the video where a veritable strike force arrives for a man walking down the street in an Open carry state. Why so selective on what you comment on? You reflexively defend the White Guy in the photo but ignored the video. This is becoming very transparent.
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