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Thread: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. The cops did not do "a lot" wrong. They were basing their reaction off of the information they had and a guy who could have been a threat. They did not have any information that told them otherwise for this situation, at the time.
    It might be just me, but not giving a person time to obey an order before killing him is a 'lot' wrong.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You cannot prove he "lied" about what happened in the store, only that he did not get information correct. As I've asked before, when is giving wrong information out actually lying? Is it anytime a person gives out wrong/bad information, whether intentionally done or not? Or is it only when the information is intentionally given out wrong, the person knowing fully well that it is wrong?
    I like how it is out of bounds to impute any motive for the caller, even though we know he got things wrong and has a history of lying, but we can't do the same for Crawford who did nothing wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It concerned me a lot that he was swinging it back and forth, even up to waste and chest level, and a couple of times slinging it up on his shoulder. Those are all gestures that should not be done in a public place such a WalMart. Time and place were wrong for how this weapon was being handled. (Some things were just wrong period, no matter time and place, but there were some major things that were definitely time and place dependent.)
    Yes, swinging a gun is something that shouldn't be done

    Shooting a man who was not threatening anyone is OK

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Mishandling a high powered rifle in a crowded public area isn't an imminent threat?
    No, it's not and at the time the police shot him, he was not mishandling the gun
    Last edited by sangha; 10-02-14 at 11:36 AM.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Let's try this again, with more emphasis: "not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force."

    I was at a charity dove hunt two weeks ago and saw several people mishandling their shotguns. The response one near me got was, (paraphrased) - "Don't swing on low birds a******. Watch what you're doing!" No one called the SWAT team....
    Time and place do matter here. It is not common for someone to be walking around a WalMart, with a weapon, let alone swinging it around, while it would be extremely common for people to have weapons at a dove hunt. It is probably not even that rare for people to be mishandling those weapons. Audience also comes into play here. The audience at a WalMart is not going to be anything like the "audience" at a dove hunt when it comes to weapons.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Let's try this again, with more emphasis: "not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force."

    I was at a charity dove hunt two weeks ago and saw several people mishandling their shotguns. The response one near me got was, (paraphrased) - "Don't swing on low birds a******. Watch what you're doing!" No one called the SWAT team....
    Hyperbole and drama noted.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It might be just me, but not giving a person time to obey an order before killing him is a 'lot' wrong.
    It's just you. You have no way of determining that based on a grainy video synced with audio of a 911 call released for media consumption only. And not suitable for in depth analysis.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I like how it is out of bounds to impute any motive for the caller, even though we know he got things wrong and has a history of lying, but we can't do the same for Crawford who did nothing wrong.
    I'm saying that we simply don't know his intention in what he said, even when it was wrong. The caller does hold culpability here too, but I have no idea what he should have done differently. We cannot say what he truly believed he saw while watching Crawford. I would definitely not have told him to get closer or talk to someone with what the caller is claiming. If he really didn't see any of what he reported happened, then he shouldn't have reported it as such. But I can say what Crawford should have done differently. And that is he shouldn't not have been walking around a store with a BB gun, swinging it around as if no one would feel threatened. He should not have been so completely oblivious to what was going on around him that he doesn't even notice police officers coming up on him until his first reaction, even if only small, ends up being perceived as a threat. The cops could have possibly used other force, but they were dealing with what they believed (because they had information that said that he appeared to load the rifle in the store and that he had "aimed" it at other people) could have been a mass shooter.

    Every person on this planet has a history of lying. On average, everyone lies at least 10 times a day. So that is plain stupid to even say.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Time and place do matter here. It is not common for someone to be walking around a WalMart, with a weapon, let alone swinging it around, while it would be extremely common for people to have weapons at a dove hunt. It is probably not even that rare for people to be mishandling those weapons. Audience also comes into play here. The audience at a WalMart is not going to be anything like the "audience" at a dove hunt when it comes to weapons.
    If openly carrying a weapon in public is enough to give police the excuse to kill someone (after the police gave him a generous second or two to comply with their order or be killed), I might if I lived in Ohio work to repeal open carry laws. It's a bit unbelievable that several seem willing to attribute bad motives to the person for what is legal to do in Ohio.

    And I agree about the 'audience' at Walmart. It's why I don't support open carry laws, and don't support concealed carry for people without a demonstrated need for a firearm. It's not that I'm scared of guns or gun owners - been around both my entire life, and own and shoot rifles, pistols and shotguns regularly. It's because it's impossible to tell at a glance if a person with an AR slung over his shoulder is a good or bad guy, or just picked up the rifle that morning and can't reliably operate the safety. Same with that guy with a Glock on his hip. For all I know, he's a drunk and just broke up with his girlfriend and will shoot the first person who crosses him. I'm not comfortable with weapons wielding total strangers. Mistakes with firearms are often deadly.

    But if a state is open carry, the police are obligated to respect the law and not shoot a person dead for doing nothing illegal, and only arguably unsafe. The response to unsafe is "Cut the crap - learn how to handle your weapon elsewhere!" Not calling the SWAT team and them issuing an order that cannot reasonably be met then killing the person when that order isn't met.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    It's just you. You have no way of determining that based on a grainy video synced with audio of a 911 call released for media consumption only. And not suitable for in depth analysis.
    I guess we can't evaluate evidence that we haven't seen, but the video synced with the audio is better evidence than in 99% of similar incidents.

    And what we do KNOW is an innocent person posing no actual threat and breaking no law, who threatened no individual, stalked no one, pointed the gun directly at no one, minding his business in a deserted corner of Walmart talking on the phone, is dead.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I'm saying that we simply don't know his intention in what he said, even when it was wrong. The caller does hold culpability here too, but I have no idea what he should have done differently. We cannot say what he truly believed he saw while watching Crawford. I would definitely not have told him to get closer or talk to someone with what the caller is claiming. If he really didn't see any of what he reported happened, then he shouldn't have reported it as such. But I can say what Crawford should have done differently. And that is he shouldn't not have been walking around a store with a BB gun, swinging it around as if no one would feel threatened. He should not have been so completely oblivious to what was going on around him that he doesn't even notice police officers coming up on him until his first reaction, even if only small, ends up being perceived as a threat. The cops could have possibly used other force, but they were dealing with what they believed (because they had information that said that he appeared to load the rifle in the store and that he had "aimed" it at other people) could have been a mass shooter.

    Every person on this planet has a history of lying. On average, everyone lies at least 10 times a day. So that is plain stupid to even say.
    Yes, the caller "maybe believed" he was an ex-Marine. He "maybe believed" the fraudulent facts he wrote on his application to the Marines. He "maybe believed" that the guy was loading the gun. He "maybe believed" the gun was pointed at two kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    None of the air rifles at Walmart appear to have any such marking.

    For example:

    Crosman MTR77 NP Break Barrel Rifle - Walmart.com
    My BB gun doesn't have a red tip either, and it shoots metal BBs with a pretty decent muzzle velocity, it's kind of scary now that I think of it.
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

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