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Thread: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

  1. #251
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why do you have to go to the extreme? No one is talking about OJ. I merely asked you why, if what you say is true did the GJ fail to indict? And could it be that you are not privy to all the evidence they saw? Or, is it just that the black man was shot by cops, and that's all you need in your mind to indict them on your own?
    The only thing the GJ decision demonstrates is that a certain group of people did not believe there was enough evidence to charge to the officer. It doesn't reveal anything about the facts (added on edit) Their only job is to decide if there's enough evidence to charge the officer with a criminal offense. Their job is not deciding if it was good police work.

    The facts are that a man who did not do anything criminal or that presented an imminent danger to anyone was shot while dropping his weapon as ordered.

    And arguing that they had, or might have had, more evidence is just speculation. I will base my opinions on the evidence that is available.
    Last edited by sangha; 10-01-14 at 11:42 AM.
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  2. #252
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why do you have to go to the extreme? No one is talking about OJ. I merely asked you why, if what you say is true did the GJ fail to indict? And could it be that you are not privy to all the evidence they saw? Or, is it just that the black man was shot by cops, and that's all you need in your mind to indict them on your own?
    It looks to me like a borderline execution, and incredibly poorly handled, and I wouldn't have the cops who killed him on any force I was responsible for, but even with all that, I'm not sure I'd have voted to indict the officers. He WAS holding a gun and they did have a caller making up facts about the guy that likely had a big influence on how they interpreted what they saw. And when the guy came flying back around the corner, it was threatening. Bottom line is there's a big difference in my view between just awful police work, and an officer with a hair trigger who treated the suspect more like a combatant in war than a citizen of the U.S. and a criminal act that should send the officer to jail for many years. Looked like a perfect storm of awful decisions by several people with good intentions with a tragic outcome.

    But in a civil suit, knowing what I've seen on the video, this would be a simple decision for the plaintiff, the victim's family. The only question is how $much.

  3. #253
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I saw that he moved. I don't know why you didn't see it, but it did happen. The gun was coming/moving up just before he was shot. Like I said, don't know if this was done intentionally or just a reaction, but he was moving the gun up, even if slowly, just before he was shot. I gave the time to the second earlier in this thread.
    He doesn't move until *after* you can hear the police yell "Get down!". If his movement was a reaction, it wasn't to something the cops said before that (that we didn't hear) It was a reaction to the cops yelling "Get down!"

    And the gun was swinging slightly but barely moved from pointed straight down. It never came close to pointing at anything but the floor and was not being raised to a firing a position. If, as you have claimed, the cops had been talking to him for some period of time before that which we could hear on the recording, then they would have seen that this was what he had been doing (swinging the gun barrel slightly) and was not a movement to raise the gun.
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  4. #254
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    He doesn't move until *after* you can hear the police yell "Get down!". If his movement was a reaction, it wasn't to something the cops said before that (that we didn't hear) It was a reaction to the cops yelling "Get down!"

    And the gun was swinging slightly but barely moved from pointed straight down. It never came close to pointing at anything but the floor and was not being raised to a firing a position. If, as you have claimed, the cops had been talking to him for some period of time before that which we could hear on the recording, then they would have seen that this was what he had been doing (swinging the gun barrel slightly) and was not a movement to raise the gun.
    He moves the gun up as soon as the first officer (we can hear) says something, and that movement was lifting the gun up, then you hear the first shot fired. There was no movement at that time though that looked like him trying to get on the ground or going down at all. And we have no idea what was going on or how much the police saw. I also never claimed that the police had been talking to him "for some period of time" that was longer than maybe a few additional seconds. In those seconds that we see the police arriving, he did not swing the gun at all. He had been doing that motion before they came into view, erratically.
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  5. #255
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    He moves the gun up as soon as the first officer (we can hear) says something, and that movement was lifting the gun up, then you hear the first shot fired.
    No, the gun itself doesn't move up. The only movement of the gun is the barrel swinging slightly as it had been and it never was pointed at anything but the floor. If the cops were there before we can hear them, as you have suggested, they would have seen that. If they hadn't been there, as I believe, then they didn't give him any time.


    There was no movement at that time though that looked like him trying to get on the ground or going down at all. And we have no idea what was going on or how much the police saw. I also never claimed that the police had been talking to him "for some period of time" that was longer than maybe a few additional seconds. In those seconds that we see the police arriving, he did not swing the gun at all. He had been doing that motion before they came into view, erratically.
    Just before the shots ring out, the cop yells "Get down" and you can see his left leg jerk a bit to the left. The cop yells "Put the gun down" and then his right shoulder starts going down and the gun is being lowered. Then he is shot. In the "few additional seconds" before that (the cop yelling "Get down") Crawfords body doesn't move at all, and the only movement is a slight swinging of the gun barrel (which is continually pointed at the floor)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #256
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, the gun itself doesn't move up. The only movement of the gun is the barrel swinging slightly as it had been and it never was pointed at anything but the floor. If the cops were there before we can hear them, as you have suggested, they would have seen that. If they hadn't been there, as I believe, then they didn't give him any time.

    Just before the shots ring out, the cop yells "Get down" and you can see his left leg jerk a bit to the left. The cop yells "Put the gun down" and then his right shoulder starts going down and the gun is being lowered. Then he is shot. In the "few additional seconds" before that (the cop yelling "Get down") Crawfords body doesn't move at all, and the only movement is a slight swinging of the gun barrel (which is continually pointed at the floor)
    It moved up, even if the barrel didn't make it up far enough to point at anything or anyone above floor level. The cops had no way of knowing if that gun would move further up to shoot one of them or someone else who might not have moved from the area quick enough.

    The first movement of the barrel up is what caused the first shots to be fired. The rifle was not being put down at that time. I have no idea if he had been shot at that point. But that is almost certainly what prompted the shots being fired because it can be construed as a "threatening gesture" since the police have no way of knowing if the rifle is going to be put down in the next few seconds or continue to come up to shoot someone.
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  7. #257
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It moved up, even if the barrel didn't make it up far enough to point at anything or anyone above floor level. The cops had no way of knowing if that gun would move further up to shoot one of them or someone else who might not have moved from the area quick enough.

    The first movement of the barrel up is what caused the first shots to be fired. The rifle was not being put down at that time. I have no idea if he had been shot at that point. But that is almost certainly what prompted the shots being fired because it can be construed as a "threatening gesture" since the police have no way of knowing if the rifle is going to be put down in the next few seconds or continue to come up to shoot someone.
    I just rewatched the video, and at the moment the cop yells "Get down", the barrel of the gun is moving down, not up. Before we can hear the cop yell, Crawford had swung the barrel up slightly (as he had been doing previously) and by the time the cop yelled "Get down" the barrel of the gun was swinging down.

    At 8:26;53, he swings the barrel up. By 8:26:55 it is pointed straight down. At 8:26:55:10 the barrel has swung so that it's pointing *behind him* which is when the officer yells "Get down" after which the barrel moves to be pointing straight down and his left leg moves.

    At no time after we can hear the cop starts yelling does the barrel or the gun itself move up
    Last edited by sangha; 10-01-14 at 12:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #258
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I just rewatched the video, and at the moment the cop yells "Get down", the barrel of the gun is moving down, not up. Before we can hear the cop yell, Crawford had swung the barrel up slightly (as he had been doing previously) and by the time the cop yelled "Get down" the barrel of the gun was swinging down.
    And I saw differently when I watched it. See the problem here yet?
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  9. #259
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And I saw differently when I watched it. See the problem here yet?
    Yes, I do

    I think you should watch the video a few more times. First read my post just above yours (#257) where I note the exact moment the cop yells "Get down!" (8:26:55:10) and where the gun barrel is pointed (at the floor behind him). From that moment on, you can see that the neither the gun barrel nor the gun itself is ever raised. From that moment to the moment he is shot, the gun barrel goes from being pointed slightly up (at the floor behind him) to being pointed straight down, which happens because Crawford *lowers* the gun, not raising it
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #260
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, I do

    I think you should watch the video a few more times. First read my post just above yours (#257) where I note the exact moment the cop yells "Get down!" (8:26:55:10) and where the gun barrel is pointed (at the floor behind him). From that moment on, you can see that the neither the gun barrel nor the gun itself is ever raised. From that moment to the moment he is shot, the gun barrel goes from being pointed slightly up (at the floor behind him) to being pointed straight down, which happens because Crawford *lowers* the gun, not raising it
    I have watched it a number of times, and do not see what you are seeing. I saw something very different. I saw the barrel begin to rise up and that was when the first shots were fired. That is what prompted the shooting.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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