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Thread: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

  1. #211
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, we don't. Because we only have audio from the specific area that the caller of 911 was in. We do not know what was said by cops on the other side, more than 20 feet away. We have no idea what was all said. It is merely speculation to believe that you can actually hear everything that is going on in such a situation based on what is overheard in the background of a phone call. We know that there were police officers coming from both sides of the aisles. That means that at least one set of officers we do not know what interaction or communication they had with the guy with the gun. We also don't know what happened since to me it doesnt' look like he was putting the gun down at all. Pointed at the floor does not mean that the cops didn't see something.

    It would be nice to have what the Grand Jury had, that information. But we don't. We only have a single surveillance video with audio dubbed in from a phone call. There definitely seems to be more than this, something the media doesn't have.
    No, we know exactly when the cops started communication started. You can hear it and see when Crawford starts reacting. The possibility that the police were quietly communicating with him is absurd. It goes against standard police procedure and if that's what they were doing then that is just more evidence that this situation was handled incompetently by the police

    And "pointed at the floor" does mean that it wasn't a threat to anyone at that moment.

    Basically, your argument is "there must have been something else that justifies the shooting" which pretty much demonstrates the absence of any evidence in the recording to justify the shooting.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    So not dropping your gun, a gun that's not pointed at any one, as soon as the police tell you to do so is enough to get you killed by the cops? Is this your stance?
    He was given less than one second. If he dropped the gun that fast, they would be arguing that his quick movement indicated a threat and justified shooting him
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Clearly the only solution is to disarm and disband all police officers and departments.
    No police departments need to start wearing shiney shoes again, and dump the combat gear. It's going to their heads. There is no way that officer gave the guy time to put his weapon down unless they deleted video. The guy is standing there and next he's down. That was like one second. Who can react that fast. First you have to realize that an officer is even talking to you. If you're minding your own business, and a cop start shouting you don't even know it's you they're shouting at. It's not like the guy baracaded himself in the store, and then cops came pouring in. He's standing in the pet aisle looking at a shelf of pet food. If you heard yelling would you immediately assuming it's you being yelled at? You'd look up to see what's going on. Based that video you'd have been shot already before realizing they are talking to you.
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  4. #214
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    He was given less than one second. If he dropped the gun that fast, they would be arguing that his quick movement indicated a threat and justified shooting him
    Even if he was given 10 seconds, that's not reason enough to shoot, imo. You shoot when there's clear and present danger. At no point was the gentleman in the video acting in a threatening manner. At no point was he threatening the other shoppers. It was an air rifle. I'm personally amazed people are still in support of the cops who killed this man.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    So not dropping your gun, a gun that's not pointed at any one, as soon as the police tell you to do so is enough to get you killed by the cops? Is this your stance?
    There should be sufficient time to put down the weapon, but what is sufficient is subjective. Plus, we don't actually know how much time he had. As I've said, we don't really know when the first cop to have any contact with him ordered him to put down the gun. We know he had a few seconds at least. How much time though is sufficient before the police should take someone down?

    Plus, he raises the gun up right after the first officer we do here says to drop it. Right at 8:26:56 he looks to be raising the gun up, not putting it on the ground, right after the police officer told him to drop it. It is more than possible that he didn't understand what was going on or why, but it is what happened in the video. Just as there were several instances where he raises the gun up to chest or waist level, even slings it on his shoulder several times. That certainly could be threatening to other shoppers.

    Also, around 8:21/8:22, he does appear to be trying to load the gun, just as the caller claimed. I, as someone who has no clue how BB guns work nor can I tell the difference between a BB gun and a real rifle, especially from at least an aisle in WalMart away, would think he was trying to load the gun.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Even if he was given 10 seconds, that's not reason enough to shoot, imo. You shoot when there's clear and present danger. At no point was the gentleman in the video acting in a threatening manner. At no point was he threatening the other shoppers. It was an air rifle. I'm personally amazed people are still in support of the cops who killed this man.
    A fact that was not immediately obvious in that situation. It looked like a real rifle to me. How was the guy on the phone supposed to know it was just a BB gun without getting closer? Why should he get closer just to verify? And I doubt the police could tell either, especially given the situation and information they had.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    No police departments need to start wearing shiney shoes again, and dump the combat gear. It's going to their heads. There is no way that officer gave the guy time to put his weapon down unless they deleted video. The guy is standing there and next he's down. That was like one second. Who can react that fast. First you have to realize that an officer is even talking to you. If you're minding your own business, and a cop start shouting you don't even know it's you they're shouting at. It's not like the guy baracaded himself in the store, and then cops came pouring in. He's standing in the pet aisle looking at a shelf of pet food. If you heard yelling would you immediately assuming it's you being yelled at? You'd look up to see what's going on. Based that video you'd have been shot already before realizing they are talking to you.
    Yes and the fact that he was carrying store merchandise would have taken him a second or two to comprehend they thought he had a gun. I was pulled over with an air rifle in the backseat and it took a couple seconds of shock after the cop pulled his gun on us to remember it was back there and that he might mistake it for a gun. Luckily the cop was very cool about it all, although he called for back up to inspect the it and kept his gun on us at all times, I can't imagine just being rushed up on and taken by even more surprise.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not quite admitting "he lied", at least at the time. Especially since what he says didn't happen isn't actually what he said happened in the call, "at no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody.". He actually never said that the guy "shouldered the rifle and pointed it at someone" in his call.

    But this does go back to psychology. He may have believed at the time that he saw the guy point the rifle at someone and even load it (which is possible if the guy didn't know what kind of gun it was since certain movements can appear to be loading it when it comes to perspective). When is something a lie? Is a statement a lie when it is something a person knows is wrong or when what they believe is proven wrong?

    Now, maybe this guy did truly lie on purpose, and if proven, he should be held accountable. However, this does not prove any lie on his part, only a change in perspective, especially since he had since been shown the video and people adjust their perspectives to new facts and information, even subconsciously.
    Probably a gun hater trying to get a gun owner killed. I wouldn't be surprised if more of this doesn't happen; all you need are gun happy police officers who don't think their careers are complete unless they shoot someone.
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  9. #219
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There should be sufficient time to put down the weapon, but what is sufficient is subjective.
    I don't think any reasonable person would say that less than a second is sufficient.

    Plus, we don't actually know how much time he had. As I've said, we don't really know when the first cop to have any contact with him ordered him to put down the gun. We know he had a few seconds at least. How much time though is sufficient before the police should take someone down?
    No, he was given less than a second.

    And the police should not shoot unless the person presents a threat which Crawford did not do. It doesn't matter how long it takes for him to put down the gun.

    Plus, he raises the gun up right after the first officer we do here says to drop it. Right at 8:26:56 he looks to be raising the gun up, not putting it on the ground, right after the police officer told him to drop it.
    The gun is pointed at the ground the entire time, from the moment they tell him to "get down" to the time they shoot him. All one second of it.

    It is more than possible that he didn't understand what was going on or why, but it is what happened in the video. Just as there were several instances where he raises the gun up to chest or waist level, even slings it on his shoulder several times. That certainly could be threatening to other shoppers.
    Crawford was not pointing the gun at anyone when he was shot.

    Also, around 8:21/8:22, he does appear to be trying to load the gun, just as the caller claimed. I, as someone who has no clue how BB guns work nor can I tell the difference between a BB gun and a real rifle, especially from at least an aisle in WalMart away, would think he was trying to load the gun.
    Irrelevant. Police treat all guns as if they are loaded. The issue here isn't whether the gun was loaded. The issue is whether the shooting was justified and the only time a police shooting is justified is when the person they shoot is posing a threat to themselves or others. Crawford was not posing an threat when he was shot.
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  10. #220
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    A fact that was not immediately obvious in that situation. It looked like a real rifle to me. How was the guy on the phone supposed to know it was just a BB gun without getting closer? Why should he get closer just to verify? And I doubt the police could tell either, especially given the situation and information they had.
    You're missing the point. The point is he never at any point during that video, posed a threat to anyone. Even if the item he was hold was an AR-15, there's no reason to immediately shoot because he wasn't threatening anyone.

    So I ask again:
    So not dropping your gun, a gun that's not pointed at any one, as soon as the police tell you to do so is enough to get you killed by the cops? Is this your stance?
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
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