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Thread: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

  1. #201
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Not quite admitting "he lied", at least at the time. Especially since what he says didn't happen isn't actually what he said happened in the call, "at no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody.". He actually never said that the guy "shouldered the rifle and pointed it at someone" in his call.

    But this does go back to psychology. He may have believed at the time that he saw the guy point the rifle at someone and even load it (which is possible if the guy didn't know what kind of gun it was since certain movements can appear to be loading it when it comes to perspective). When is something a lie? Is a statement a lie when it is something a person knows is wrong or when what they believe is proven wrong?

    Now, maybe this guy did truly lie on purpose, and if proven, he should be held accountable. However, this does not prove any lie on his part, only a change in perspective, especially since he had since been shown the video and people adjust their perspectives to new facts and information, even subconsciously.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It was concerning enough for someone to call 911. Is he wrong too?
    If by "he", you're referring to the caller, he was without a doubt wrong. The caller made claims that are clearly false.

    I mean, he was there, he described actions, like fumbling and trying to load a gun and pointing it at people. He was there, as were the police. Their perceptions are at least worth considering, even if you choose to judge what you see and hear on a video.
    Crawford did not fumble with the gun, did not try to load it and did not point it anyone in the video.

    And I did not say that eyewitnesses should not be considered. However, what they say should not be considered the truth simply because they were there and said it happened. As the video shows, people's perceptions are not always accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, this is not true at all. People in stressful situations, without any drugs or impairments, have been shown to see things that didn't happen. Many times they see what they expect to see instead of what actually happens, which is why eye witness accounts are becoming less reliable as evidence.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Do you think in this case it was? To me it looked like he blatantly misrepresented the facts when he said said the guy was reloading and pointing guns at children when the surveillance shows otherwise.
    Hell, he even changed his story: "One month later, Ritchie puts it differently. 'At no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody,' the 24-year-old said, in an interview with the Guardian. He maintained that Crawford was 'waving it around', which attorneys for Crawford’s family deny." (Doubts cast on witness's account of black man killed by police in Walmart | World news | theguardian.com)

    In addition to this, due to Ritchie's lying, not only did Crawford die, but also a woman in the Walmart died as well.

    “She was apparently running from a dangerous situation inside the Walmart store when she collapsed. She was taken to Soin Medical Center where she died at 9:14 p.m.” The dangerous situation, of course, being the police coming in and shooting Crawford. (Death of woman at Walmart shooting called devastating | www.daytondailynews.com)
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If by "he", you're referring to the caller, he was without a doubt wrong. The caller made claims that are clearly false.



    Crawford did not fumble with the gun, did not try to load it and did not point it anyone in the video.

    And I did not say that eyewitnesses should not be considered. However, what they say should not be considered the truth simply because they were there and said it happened. As the video shows, people's perceptions are not always accurate.
    You can keep repeating your obviously agenda driven opinion til the cows come home, doesn't change a thing to those of us with common sense.

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If by "he", you're referring to the caller, he was without a doubt wrong. The caller made claims that are clearly false.

    Crawford did not fumble with the gun, did not try to load it and did not point it anyone in the video.

    And I did not say that eyewitnesses should not be considered. However, what they say should not be considered the truth simply because they were there and said it happened. As the video shows, people's perceptions are not always accurate.

    You see? Even you know this
    Your problem is that you place most of the blame on the police who are going off of evidence that they got but is confirmed at least partially by the actual situation, since the guy was where the caller said he would be and did have a gun in his possession. They had no way to know that the guy wasn't an immediate threat based on the information they have, even knowing that people can be wrong. Not all people are wrong in what they are seeing. It is a Catch-22.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Your problem is that you place most of the blame on the police who are going off of evidence that they got but is confirmed at least partially by the actual situation, since the guy was where the caller said he would be and did have a gun in his possession. They had no way to know that the guy wasn't an immediate threat based on the information they have, even knowing that people can be wrong. Not all people are wrong in what they are seeing. It is a Catch-22.
    No, your problem is that, like the cop who first shot him, you're ignoring the evidence that he posed no threat and was complying with their order to drop the gun. IOW, they *did* have info that the guy was not an immediate threat because they were there and could see that the gun was pointing at the floor and he was putting the gun down when ordered to do so.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, your problem is that, like the cop who first shot him, you're ignoring the evidence that he posed no threat and was complying with their order to drop the gun. IOW, they *did* have info that the guy was not an immediate threat because they were there and could see that the gun was pointing at the floor and he was putting the gun down when ordered to do so.
    Except we have no idea how long it actually took him to comply with that order and the police were dealing with a situation where they didn't know if the guy was planning on going on a shooting rampage, as the information they had suggested. They did not have any information that would say he wasn't an immediate threat, despite what you want to believe. Even if he was putting his weapon down, which we really can't tell from the video since it didn't look like that happened til after the first shot was heard, the police didn't know a lot of information about the guy. He had a gun, swinging it around or at least back and forth in public. That is threatening, especially if others don't know what is going on or that the gun is really just a BB gun. It should not have been out to begin with. Open carry state or not, we simply have had too many instances where people have entered crowded places and opened fire, some after having scoped out the place first. That puts people on edge, especially police officers who have just went through training for that type of situation.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except we have no idea how long it actually took him to comply with that order
    Wrong. We know exactly how long Crawford was given to comply with the order. It is right there on the video.

    He's told to drop the gun, and less than a second later he is shot.

    and the police were dealing with a situation where they didn't know if the guy was planning on going on a shooting rampage, as the information they had suggested. They did not have any information that would say he wasn't an immediate threat, despite what you want to believe.
    The gun was pointed at the floor and he was putting it down. It's right there on video.

    Even if he was putting his weapon down, which we really can't tell from the video since it didn't look like that happened til after the first shot was heard, the police didn't know a lot of information about the guy.
    They had their eyes so they could see that he was putting the weapon down and wasn't pointing it at anyone

    He had a gun, swinging it around or at least back and forth in public. That is threatening, especially if others don't know what is going on or that the gun is really just a BB gun.
    No, that is not threatening. Irresponsible, but not threatening.

    It should not have been out to begin with.
    You can blame WalMart for that. Unfortunately, WalMart wasn't the one that was shot and killed

    Open carry state or not, we simply have had too many instances where people have entered crowded places and opened fire, some after having scoped out the place first. That puts people on edge, especially police officers who have just went through training for that type of situation.
    Hmm, police officers on edge. What could possibly go wrong with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong. We know exactly how long Crawford was given to comply with the order. It is right there on the video.

    He's told to drop the gun, and less than a second later he is shot.

    The gun was pointed at the floor and he was putting it down. It's right there on video.

    They had their eyes so they could see that he was putting the weapon down and wasn't pointing it at anyone

    No, that is not threatening. Irresponsible, but not threatening.

    You can blame WalMart for that. Unfortunately, WalMart wasn't the one that was shot and killed

    Hmm, police officers on edge. What could possibly go wrong with that?
    No, we don't. Because we only have audio from the specific area that the caller of 911 was in. We do not know what was said by cops on the other side, more than 20 feet away. We have no idea what was all said. It is merely speculation to believe that you can actually hear everything that is going on in such a situation based on what is overheard in the background of a phone call. We know that there were police officers coming from both sides of the aisles. That means that at least one set of officers we do not know what interaction or communication they had with the guy with the gun. We also don't know what happened since to me it doesnt' look like he was putting the gun down at all. Pointed at the floor does not mean that the cops didn't see something.

    It would be nice to have what the Grand Jury had, that information. But we don't. We only have a single surveillance video with audio dubbed in from a phone call. There definitely seems to be more than this, something the media doesn't have.
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    Re: No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, we don't. Because we only have audio from the specific area that the caller of 911 was in. We do not know what was said by cops on the other side, more than 20 feet away. We have no idea what was all said. It is merely speculation to believe that you can actually hear everything that is going on in such a situation based on what is overheard in the background of a phone call. We know that there were police officers coming from both sides of the aisles. That means that at least one set of officers we do not know what interaction or communication they had with the guy with the gun. We also don't know what happened since to me it doesnt' look like he was putting the gun down at all. Pointed at the floor does not mean that the cops didn't see something.

    It would be nice to have what the Grand Jury had, that information. But we don't. We only have a single surveillance video with audio dubbed in from a phone call. There definitely seems to be more than this, something the media doesn't have.
    So not dropping your gun, a gun that's not pointed at any one, as soon as the police tell you to do so is enough to get you killed by the cops? Is this your stance?
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