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Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Then why have school at all? Let's just let kids learn on their own, without the necessity for schools or teachers or textbooks or tests. Your answer to propaganda posing as education is to 'let them learn after school'?

Not instead of, but in addition to. It's not a one or the other sort of thing. But if you are in HS and feel your coursework isn't providing the whole picture, you're in luck. We're smack dab in the middle of the information age where you have free access to dissenting material.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

I'll read the details in a short bit, but I must make it known that "just the facts" history doesn't actually exist, including public school curriculum. Over the past 20 years, for instance, there has been a rise in countering some of what historians would consider the liberal/conservative consensus in the post-war 20th century. The relatively recent (but still about 20 years) narrative has been that the United States history is about a constant revaluation of how it can fulfill its promise. This has been more about cultural pluralism, minority status, and civil rights activism than it had in the past.

That's a narrative choice, bore from more than "just the facts."

Now, broadly speaking, instilling patriotism, hardly a unique and detrimental aspect of existing public school social studies, is a good thing.

After that, respect for authority, also not unique and detrimental in existing public school social studies, is a good thing.

Downplaying the desirability of civil disobedience, while I am personally sympathetic toward that idea, is not really appropriate. I think at most we can bring forth the idea that civil disobedience is an inherently controversial tactic (thus entertaining why the tactics themselves may be seen as wrong, just as you would entertain why they are seen as right or justified).

That being said, these are slogans, and hopefully I could find what the standards actually say and perhaps a comparison with prior standards. Much of the time, I have a hard time believing that patriotism, respect for authority, and an examination of controversial ideas are not allowed or are not somehow a mainstay of the existing instruction.

You can believe it when the faculty and administration are fully indoctrinated in political correctness, leftwing ideology, and embrace socialist/Marxist theology including rejection of all nationalism and pride in country. I find it hard to believe that those kids read those textbooks and concluded on their own that the content was unacceptable to them. I am pretty sure they were guided and encouraged in rejecting and protesting them.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

You can believe it when the faculty and administration are fully indoctrinated in political correctness, leftwing ideology, and embrace socialist/Marxist theology including rejection of all nationalism and pride in country. I find it hard to believe that those kids read those textbooks and concluded on their own that the content was unacceptable to them. I am pretty sure they were guided and encouraged in rejecting and protesting them.

And how, exactly, did you come to that conclusion?
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

And how, exactly, did you come to that conclusion?

Because HS students generally don't know **** about what their school board is deciding about curriculum unless some adult calls it to their attention. Typically with words such as, "Do you see the terrible thing they are trying to do to you?".
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

You can believe it when the faculty and administration are fully indoctrinated in political correctness, leftwing ideology, and embrace socialist/Marxist theology including rejection of all nationalism and pride in country. I find it hard to believe that those kids read those textbooks and concluded on their own that the content was unacceptable to them. I am pretty sure they were guided and encouraged in rejecting and protesting them.

Political correctness exists in this country, regardless of who is ensuring it. It is a method not isolated to any particular ideology or creed. After all, socialists and communists have experienced it for decades in the United States.

Now, in terms of Marxism's influence on the field of history, that is to be accepted. Even conservatives have been influenced by it. It's part of the discipline, and while it has its weaknesses (just like most other models), it has been useful. Now, if you are suggesting students are being asked to join the revolution, I highly doubt it.

Indoctrination is a benign process of public schools. I, for one, want a public school to indoctrinate students to embrace benign nationalism, and think it relatively reasonable to have government-sponsored schools do that. Indoctrination is part of school. What is under dispute is what form of indoctrination to employ.

As for the students participating in the protests, I do not doubt that they were somehow influenced by the words of adults, whether it was a teacher or if it were some of the parents. That's going to be unavoidable.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Conceptually, yes, but I think it is worth reminding people that public school history teaching is often inherently a somewhat conservative position. Unless you are encouraging students to read Howard Zinn, it is more likely you are attempting to balance the concerns of liberals and conservatives. You often avoid doing something which can cause a parent to complain, which tends to benefit the status-quo more than a progressive cause.

That was not the impression that I got from my educational experience. There was a focus on the things that white Americans and other white people did wrong (slavery, segregation, the Holocaust). None of it was rose tinted or patriotic. Very little was taught about any other society doing anything wrong, largely because we learned very little about world history. Now that so many teachers have been taught "social justice" ideology in college, I imagine that it's even more liberal.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

That was not the impression that I got from my educational experience. There was a focus on the things that white Americans and other white people did wrong (slavery, segregation, the Holocaust). None of it was rose tinted or patriotic. Very little was taught about any other society doing anything wrong, largely because we learned very little about world history. Now that so many teachers have been taught "social justice" ideology in college, I imagine that it's even more liberal.

Did they reject the desirability of America's "promise"? Reject the principles of inclusive democracy? Reject the desirability of what people see as the country's ideals? Were you asked to revolt?
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

And how, exactly, did you come to that conclusion?

Because I have up close and working knowledge of school system, faculties, administrations, and school kids. And in my ever increasing long life, I have NEVER known school kids to read and object to a text book in that way unless they were somehow encouraged to do that.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Where do the standards call for censorship?

In all fairness, the Board proposal does suggest a specific agenda.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Political correctness exists in this country, regardless of who is ensuring it. It is a method not isolated to any particular ideology or creed. After all, socialists and communists have experienced it for decades in the United States.

Now, in terms of Marxism's influence on the field of history, that is to be accepted. Even conservatives have been influenced by it. It's part of the discipline, and while it has its weaknesses (just like most other models), it has been useful. Now, if you are suggesting students are being asked to join the revolution, I highly doubt it.

Indoctrination is a benign process of public schools. I, for one, want a public school to indoctrinate students to embrace benign nationalism, and think it relatively reasonable to have government-sponsored schools do that. Indoctrination is part of school. What is under dispute is what form of indoctrination to employ.

As for the students participating in the protests, I do not doubt that they were somehow influenced by the words of adults, whether it was a teacher or if it were some of the parents. That's going to be unavoidable.

Indoctrination is indeed part of the modern government-controlled and/or heavily controlled schools populated with faculty and administration who embrace at least components of Marxism. It is not inevitable as I grew up in public schools in which indoctrination was no part of the curriculum or teach methodology. We were exposed to ALL points of view on ALL issues and encouraged to think critically and draw our own conclusions. We were not told WHAT to think but rather HOW to think. Extending into college we were treated to speakers promoting Communism, McCarthyism, left, right, up, down, and everything in between. Other than what was considered vulgar or obscene, there was no topic that was off limits or promoted by our teachers in any way.

THAT is what education is supposed to be. I can often remember this or that student standing up in class to protest some piece of information in a textbook and explaining why he/she thought it wrong. Sometimes those students were right. Sometimes not. But to organize and implement a walk out protest of textbook content? Just wouldn't have happened then. Shouldn't happen now.

And I don't believe for a minute that the idea originated with those kids.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Because HS students generally don't know **** about what their school board is deciding about curriculum unless some adult calls it to their attention. Typically with words such as, "Do you see the terrible thing they are trying to do to you?".

We see the same Leftist activism in our local schools. This is not from the students themselves, but usually outside groups like the ACLU and Freedom from Religion-type Neo-Communist outfits----normally at the request of the student's relatives.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Indoctrination is indeed part of the modern government-controlled and/or heavily controlled schools populated with faculty and administration who embrace at least components of Marxism. It is not inevitable as I grew up in public schools in which indoctrination was no part of the curriculum or teach methodology.

But you presumably were educated on the relative goodness of American civilization, its ideology, and its institutions, were you not? Welcome to indoctrination. We have all been indoctrinated, and it's fine. You just seem to be under the illusion that this is only really persistent among Left-wing adherents.

And I don't believe for a minute that the idea originated with those kids.

Neither do I.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Because I have up close and working knowledge of school system, faculties, administrations, and school kids. And in my ever increasing long life, I have NEVER known school kids to read and object to a text book in that way unless they were somehow encouraged to do that.
That's silly. Students aren't involved in school policy? Our school board thought of banning Perks of Being a Wallflower after conservative parents complained.

We protested and retained the book.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Because I have up close and working knowledge of school system, faculties, administrations, and school kids. And in my ever increasing long life, I have NEVER known school kids to read and object to a text book in that way unless they were somehow encouraged to do that.

I don't consider "well, it's never happened before" to be legitimate backing for such a claim as yours. Besides, kids are involved in school policy all the time. It's kind of hard to disagree with them on this. The only ones who do, really, are those who like what is being taught. Authoritarian indoctrination is wrong no matter which wing of thought it favors. Education should be education, it should favor as little bias as possible.
 
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Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Did they reject the desirability of America's "promise"? Reject the principles of inclusive democracy? Reject the desirability of what people see as the country's ideals? Were you asked to revolt?

Nothing that extreme. Still, I feel like it did promote a liberal perspective, which I now find simplistic and don't really agree with anymore: a kind of nieve optimism that if we can just fix white people that the world will be hunky dory.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

I have 3 high schoolers who all get good grades and all play on high school sports teams and are all engaged in clubs.

None of them even know we have a school board.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

But you presumably were educated on the relative goodness of American civilization, its ideology, and its institutions, were you not? Welcome to indoctrination. We have all been indoctrinated, and it's fine. You just seem to be under the illusion that this is only really persistent among Left-wing adherents.

Neither do I.

Actually no, I was not indoctrinated on the 'goodness of America' as I received an excellent education in history that included the good, the bad, the ugly, the mistakes, the successes, the missteps, the unintended good and bad results of what we as Americans have done. But were we encouraged to love and respect our country? Yes we were because that is what we, our parents, our school boards, our community, our local governments etc. believed to be edifying and important as citizens. So we recited the Pledge of Allegiance, saluted and demanded proper protocol for display and use of the flag, learned and sang patriotic (and religious) songs, were required to exercise respect for our elders and authority, and it was all good. Was that indoctrination? Or just exercise of our beliefs, culture, and sense of morality? At no step of the way were we ever discouraged from questioning or challenging anything and we were encouraged to critically evaluate everything.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Because I have up close and working knowledge of school system, faculties, administrations, and school kids. And in my ever increasing long life, I have NEVER known school kids to read and object to a text book in that way unless they were somehow encouraged to do that.

I went to a Catholic school and would object to alot of the material that was fed to me. Yet, if I so much as questioned anything I was shut down right away by my parents, grandparents, the nuns, or the teachers. I was encouraged to believe what was taught, not to object and was made to feel guilty for questioning anything against the religion or anything to do with science. Maybe that's why this subject of children being indoctrinated is sensitive to me - I lived it and was able to overcome it but do not underestimate a child breaking away from the mold and objecting.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

I have 3 high schoolers who all get good grades and all play on high school sports teams and are all engaged in clubs.

None of them even know we have a school board.

In education committees that have youth involvement as a desired or required component, it is not uncommon for it to be difficult to secure involvement. Of course, many operations are during inconvenient times for youth, but all things being equal, youth engagement is certainly lacking. That's not to say that adult involvement is much to discuss either, but in terms of sheer presence, youth are not actively involved.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

That being said, these are slogans, and hopefully I could find what the standards actually say and perhaps a comparison with prior standards. Much of the time, I have a hard time believing that patriotism, respect for authority, and an examination of controversial ideas are not allowed or are not somehow a mainstay of the existing instruction.

The actual standards have yet to be written, but the school board issued a statement saying that the curriculum should only include subjects that promote patriotism, respect for authority, etc. As an example, one of the school board members complained that the teaching of slavery would put the US in a bad light.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Actually no, I was not indoctrinated on the 'goodness of America' as I received an excellent education in history that included the good, the bad, the ugly, the mistakes, the successes, the missteps, the unintended good and bad results of what we as Americans have done. But were we encouraged to love and respect our country? Yes we were because that is what we, our parents, our school boards, our community, our local governments etc. believed to be edifying and important as citizens.

Right there is the indoctrination, as was your mentions of the pledge of allegiance, and so forth. Again, indoctrination by itself is not all that horrible.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

I'd agree with you there if that were at all humanly possible - it's not. Knowing that, I'd rather the bias be towards America rather than against it.

The history of this nation is replete with ideological conflict. Hell, we fought a Civil War over such differences.

While I think that the protests are an overblown reaction to an under thought out proposal I believe that the principle is correct. The proposal DOES suggest a particular agenda and that is, on it's face, inappropriate for a general history class.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

That's silly. Students aren't involved in school policy? Our school board thought of banning Perks of Being a Wallflower after conservative parents complained.

We protested and retained the book.

Protesting an action with reasoned argument is one thing. I myself have joined a community protest against a book banning. But were your teachers encouraging you to disrupt, walk out, or boycott the educational process because you didn't like something in a textbook? When thinking critically it is important to understand when one thing is not the same thing as another.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

The actual standards have yet to be written, but the school board issued a statement saying that the curriculum should only include subjects that promote patriotism, respect for authority, etc.

Yeah, that would depend on what they want to do with it. Which is why....

As an example, one of the school board members complained that the teaching of slavery would put the US in a bad light.

I find this part funny. Of course it would put the U.S. in a bad light for our modern morals and ethics. :lol:
 
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