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Thread: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Hmmm....
    I'm shocked. Or not.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    My son, who graduated from public high school in 2001, used to bring his history books home from elementary and junior high school, so I can tell you first hand that there was significantly less focus put on the founding fathers then there was when I went to school in the 70's and early 80's, They also didn't put a lot of emphasis on explaining the various amendments in constitution, and the reasons behind the way they had been worded. It was taught more as a "memorize this" for testing purposes, without my son actually being taught just how innovative and unique the document was. I never got the sense throughout his school years, that he was ever taught how truly great the United States was, or how truly great so many of our founding fathers were.
    This sounds like your personal perspective. I can't dispute this without actual text. But, I will say that the founding fathers were brave and intelligent men who definitely deserve a look. But, so many Conservatives deify these men and thus cannot be properly critical of their lives and their stances and how it relates to American life today.

    I do remember one specific example of how history was being taught to him differently than it was for me. He was in 6th or 7th grade and studying WWII. More specifically, dropping the A-Bombs on Japan. I was taught that Japan simply refused to surrender so we dropped the bomb because we believed it was the only way we could prevent invading Japan and the war going on for years longer. Basically I was taught that it was a difficult decision, and president Truman did what he though was best at the time to end the war and stop the the senseless killing. I was also taught that unlike other countries, we did not conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign governments, and we spent millions and millions of dollars and thousands of American men helping Japan rebuild their country. We were definitely the good guys, we weren't the aggressors, our cause was noble, we fought with honor, and we lived up to our responsibilities.
    If you were taught that America didn't conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign government, then you were taught wrong. There's no easier way to put it. Why would you want to pass on this incorrect information to your children and your children's children?

    My son was being taught things a little differently than me. He had an entire chapter that focused on the Japanese perspective.
    It had first hand stories from survivers, who talked about the pain and the deaths of their family and friends due to the bomb. It talked about how poor the people in mainland Japan were and how nobody came to help them for more than a day. It also discussed how underfed and under equipped the Japanese soldiers were who fought on islands like Iwo Jima. But the biggest difference was Truman's rational for dropping the bomb. They actually present speculation about the presidents motive and decision making process from people who opposed Truman's decision, as well as people who were in the Japanese military who believe that the war would have ended in a few short weeks without dropping the bomb... In a nut shell, all that extra crap serves no positive or useful purpose, and only serves to create doubts about the country that shouldn't have been created.
    War is hell. In America, so many romanticize war, blurring the horror it causes on both sides. This is why we can fund the military so profusely, but can't and don't care to support the troops that come back ailing.

    Why not get the entire debate? I'm not sure if I understand what's wrong with this perspective? It's the truth! Why would you want to suppress any of this?!

    Why in the world would someone decide to write a history book for schools that casts unnecessary doubts on the decision to drop the bomb, and leads some to question whether or not America was the bad guy in WWII?
    Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers. What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves.

    Why would someone write a history book that tells of the difficult decision our president made to drop the bomb, that teaches us that that decision was based on the best information available and done without malice, and done so in order to end the war with Japan and save thousands of American lives... and then in the same book, publish speculation from the presidents detractors and from enemy soldiers from the war, that basically accuses America of uselessly murdering 100's of thousands of innocent Japanese and casts doubt on the presidents motives and intention?
    Because both perspective are valuable. Just give the info and let them decide for themselves.

    Why would anyone think it's a good idea to make our kids have to live the pain and suffering of the bomb through the eyes of the victims, when the kids already know the number of people who were killed instantly and were told about the countless thousands who suffered from radiation poisoning long after the bomb was dropped? It's bad enough as a kid just knowing the ramifications of that decision, but to then turn around and make them have to live it through the eyes of the victims is just wrong. It's an attempt to try an over ride the logic and rational behind the decision, and create animosity through sympathy.
    Because they need to know war is horrible, sickening, painfully and sometimes needed. War should always be the last resort, but if you make it some fantasy like a video game, you reduce the fear of war. War should be feared! It should never be something we rush into.

    That is an example of how 20 years of gradually altering the history books is in fact the political indoctrination our kids, and shows clearly how that indoctrination can, and without a doubt does, result in many of our kids growing up and becoming pessimistic adults, who don't take much pride in the country and don't believe in American exceptionalism.

    I'm sure you will simply laugh this whole thing off, but believe me it's nothing to laugh at. If things don't change soon, we are going to end up with a society full of people that no longer see America as a champion of freedom, but the enemy of it. We'll end up with a country controlled by people who view America with the same contempt as Ward Churchill and 60's radicals like Bill Ayers do. We'll be finished because a people without pride = a nation without value.
    Hiding the truth and whitewash facts is political indoctrination. That's what you're advertising... and it's definitely not something we should buy.
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
    http://soulinblackandwhite.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum changes that would promote patriotism | Fox News

    I'm with the students on this one. Complete bs on the part of that school board. No curriculum should be biased or censored, just straight facts.
    So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?
    No, that is not "understanding"

    It is "trolling"
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Repeating the same tired line because you were schooled doesn't change the fact that you flailed terribly in this thread.
    I proved my point. Get over it.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?
    It is not unusual for young people to feel this way but the adults are expected to have greater maturity and wisdom. Now the differences between the students and their adult teachers has become blurred.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I proved my point. Get over it.
    No you didn't, jet. Not even close.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum


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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    If you were taught that America didn't conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign government, then you were taught wrong. There's no easier way to put it. Why would you want to pass on this incorrect information to your children and your children's children?
    Of course we occupied them right after the war, but my point was that we didn't take over Japan and make it the 51st state.

    We had to occupy them for a while not only to make sure they couldn't threaten us or any of their neighbors, but we had to help the Japanese people who were starving and had always been treated like crap by their imperial government. We introduced long over due societal reforms, like establishing rights for women, freedom of speech through a free press, we established labor laws and labor standards, introduced education reform and we broke up the corporate monopolies that had always prevented the Japanese people from making a better lives for themselves.

    It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but in the end, our 6 year presence their gave the Japanese people more freedom than they had ever known and set them on a path that in less than 30 years would see them become a world economic surper power... Something that every American should take pride in.


    War is hell. In America, so many romanticize war, blurring the horror it causes on both sides. This is why we can fund the military so profusely, but can't and don't care to support the troops that come back ailing.
    That has nothing to do with this discussion.



    Why not get the entire debate? I'm not sure if I understand what's wrong with this perspective? It's the truth! Why would you want to suppress any of this?!

    Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers. What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves.

    Let me put it to you this way... Do we take our 5 or 6 year old children to see slasher movies or rent XXX pornos for them to watch? Do we encourage 9, 10 and 11 year old girls to get on birth control and become sexually active? As adults, if we cheat on our taxes or lie to a stranger for our own personal benefit (which at one time or another most have done) do we tell them all about it or involve them in it? Do we tell kids the truth, that the many police officers can't be trusted because they are corrupt, dishonest, will arrest people for no reason, and some will even shoot people for no reason? Of course we don't because those things, and a whole list of others, can have a very negative effect on their mental development, their values, their moral outlook, and can create all kinds of social and psychological problems for them as adults.

    Everyone knows that what we teach our kids can and will, directly effect what kind of an adult they will become and although you may not think so, that includes what we teach them about the country that they live in. The "whole debate" as you call it, the graphic blood and guts details of war, and the darker, more shameful chapters in our recent history are things for adults to talk about and discuss, not kids.




    Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers.
    Adults should be free thinkers, but kids have to be taught the things necessary to build a solid social and mental foundation, so they grow up to be respectful, healthy, law abiding citizens who are optimistic about the future and see things from a positive perspective. There's a reason why we don't teach our kids that life sucks, the government sucks, cops suck, the justice system sucks, work sucks, etc...




    What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves
    If you go back and read my post again, you will see that I'm proposing nothing of the kind. I want history taught with balance and a stronger emphasis on the things that make America great, because it's important for our kids to grow up with a sense of pride in America.

    Critical thinking is what they teach in college and for the record, teaching kids that Bush lied us to war and comparing him to Hitler isn't teaching them "critical thinking". It's teaching them to never trust the president, politicians, or the government, and that being American is nothing to be proud of.

    I was raised mostly by my grandfather who on the whole, was not a very nice man... There was a long list of things in life and in the world that he hated, but he was a WWII veteran who not only emphasized the importance of being honest, but he taught me to love and respect the country, and to take pride in being an American... And you know what? I'm a very well informed, educated, open minded "critical thinker" that knows America's screw-ups as well as I do it's triumphs... it's victory's as well as it's mistakes... and it's good decisions as well as it's bad ones.

    Unlike you self proclaimed "enlightened" ones, I don't feel that as a kid, I was lied to or deceived in any way because I wasn't taught about the enemies version of events in WWII, or heard the accusations of atrocities by American soldiers, or saw videos of doctors peeling the skin off of childrens backs in Japan, or wasn't given a first hand account of a person who's entire family was killed and their face was melted off from the A-bomb, who was treated like a leper, shunned by society and lived on the streets begging for food... Nope, not at all... The truth is, I'm damned glad I wasn't taught those things as a child, because I shutter to think how it would have effected my outlook, my perspective, and how I felt about being an American.

    This may surprise you, but the people from my grandfathers generation... you know, the ones who were patriotic, loved the country and were proud to be American... they weren't stupid, didn't live their lives as fools and commanded their own destinies. They worked harder, sacrificed more and did so with a hell of a lot less than what we have today, without demanding that the government step in and help them... Maybe that's why those uninformed, unenlightened, patriotic saps will be forever known as the "Greatest generation".
    Last edited by Grim17; 10-01-14 at 09:43 AM.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No you didn't, jet. Not even close.
    I showed you that the masacre was about a labor dispute among other things.

    Get over it.

    Bye
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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