• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

The Bush administration isn't the topic of this thread.

Well, that's your opinion. I already expressed mine on the GWB Admin and why I have a hard time reconciling "limited government" and "government always fails" conservative principles with the conservative desire to teach kids to obey authority and fall in line.

I guess you don't understand my position or line of reasoning, but whatever... :)
 
I have studied philosophy and the philosophy of natural rights, and that's all it is, a philosophical view to explain the world and human agency. As I said before, we now know a lot more about the human record and history than Locke knew when he wrote about the natural rights of men. He made a lot of assumptions about human nature that was flawed. :shrug:

It's fine you accept the philosophy. I don't have issue with your accepting a philosophy, but accept it for what it is. It's a philosophical view from the Enlightenment Era.

the Constitution only has natural rights and privileges.............there is nothing else.

i did not say at all you don't have a right to protest.....i stated ....nothing is a protest if it involves the destruction of property........how can the right to protest be a right by your action if you destroy property...... therefore it is civl unrest....not a protest...protest does not involve property destruction... the violation of rights.

if you disobey the law, then you must bare the consequences of that action, plain and simple.

well you may not believe natural rights, but they are there, government has never created a right, only positive law to secure them, those natural rights you don't believe in...if you think that's not true,..... produce a statue granting a right.

if you read the Romans, they also believed in unwritten law.
 
I have studied philosophy and the philosophy of natural rights, and that's all it is, a philosophical view to explain the world and human agency. As I said before, we now know a lot more about the human record and history than Locke knew when he wrote about the natural rights of men. He made a lot of assumptions about human nature that was flawed. :shrug:

It's fine you accept the philosophy. I don't have issue with your accepting a philosophy, but accept it for what it is. It's a philosophical view from the Enlightenment Era.

then explain where do we get our rights.

because there are no statues granting any rights.... none, and the bill of rights do not grant any either.

rights are negative law or unwritten law. our declaration of Independence confirms this....and the Constitution embodies it.

so please...... show me a law creating a right.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing to debate. You simply think a philosophical view of the world is more than a philosophical view...



then explain where do we get our rights.

because there are no statues granting any rights.... none, and the bill of rights do not grant any either.

rights are negative law or unwritten law. our declaration of Independence confirms this....and the Constitution embodies it.

so please...... show me a law creating a right.
 
There is nothing to debate. You simply think a philosophical view of the world is more than a philosophical view...

you did not answer, where do rights come from,....if not from our humanity.

i can explain where they come from, ...you have failed to state anything for your argument...accept..its a philosophical view
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Bunker Hill was a civil protest. No. Boston Massacre was a labor dispute. No.

Sorry, no facts in your posts. I don't need to read any books.

get a grip and read a book. it will help you
 
:lol:

You're getting defensive for no reason. We are just discussing opinions, not making accusations about each other.

Many of your questions are non sequitur.

I never said patriotism is crap, I said it cannot be taught. People express it in different ways. I don't assume studying the constitution has been shelved, but studying the constitution is enough. I took issue with teaching kids to "obey authority," and it doesn't matter if the opinion of these high school kids is right or wrong. I don't make black and white judgements about most opinions and protests unless the issue is extreme like neo nazism, and these kids aren't nazis. They have a right to protest, and that's all I care about. I don't care what their opinion is and if I agree or disagree. I don't care what they are protesting. I simply support their freedom to protest.

In other words, you have no idea whether they teach about the Constitution now, or whether the Constitution was part of the proposed curriculum. You just think it's neat to protest without any reason for the protest. Fair enough.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

get a grip and read a book. it will help you

Repeating the same tired line because you were schooled doesn't change the fact that you flailed terribly in this thread.
 
Well, that's your opinion. I already expressed mine on the GWB Admin and why I have a hard time reconciling "limited government" and "government always fails" conservative principles with the conservative desire to teach kids to obey authority and fall in line.

I guess you don't understand my position or line of reasoning, but whatever... :)

It's not my opinion. It's in the OP. The children weren't protesting the Bush administration.
 
These are AP High School students and these students care more about their education than you claim

Hmmm....
http://www.educationdive.com/news/c...-protesting-students-are-being-misled/314431/

NEA linked to student walk-out organised by Colorado teacher's union
The Jefferson County Education Association (JCEA) teachers’ union plan to use hundreds of students as pawns in their endeavor to exert control over the district’s school board was organized by a specialist funded by the National Education Association (NEA), one of the nation’s largest teachers’ unions.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

My son, who graduated from public high school in 2001, used to bring his history books home from elementary and junior high school, so I can tell you first hand that there was significantly less focus put on the founding fathers then there was when I went to school in the 70's and early 80's, They also didn't put a lot of emphasis on explaining the various amendments in constitution, and the reasons behind the way they had been worded. It was taught more as a "memorize this" for testing purposes, without my son actually being taught just how innovative and unique the document was. I never got the sense throughout his school years, that he was ever taught how truly great the United States was, or how truly great so many of our founding fathers were.
This sounds like your personal perspective. I can't dispute this without actual text. But, I will say that the founding fathers were brave and intelligent men who definitely deserve a look. But, so many Conservatives deify these men and thus cannot be properly critical of their lives and their stances and how it relates to American life today.

I do remember one specific example of how history was being taught to him differently than it was for me. He was in 6th or 7th grade and studying WWII. More specifically, dropping the A-Bombs on Japan. I was taught that Japan simply refused to surrender so we dropped the bomb because we believed it was the only way we could prevent invading Japan and the war going on for years longer. Basically I was taught that it was a difficult decision, and president Truman did what he though was best at the time to end the war and stop the the senseless killing. I was also taught that unlike other countries, we did not conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign governments, and we spent millions and millions of dollars and thousands of American men helping Japan rebuild their country. We were definitely the good guys, we weren't the aggressors, our cause was noble, we fought with honor, and we lived up to our responsibilities.
If you were taught that America didn't conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign government, then you were taught wrong. There's no easier way to put it. Why would you want to pass on this incorrect information to your children and your children's children?

My son was being taught things a little differently than me. He had an entire chapter that focused on the Japanese perspective.
It had first hand stories from survivers, who talked about the pain and the deaths of their family and friends due to the bomb. It talked about how poor the people in mainland Japan were and how nobody came to help them for more than a day. It also discussed how underfed and under equipped the Japanese soldiers were who fought on islands like Iwo Jima. But the biggest difference was Truman's rational for dropping the bomb. They actually present speculation about the presidents motive and decision making process from people who opposed Truman's decision, as well as people who were in the Japanese military who believe that the war would have ended in a few short weeks without dropping the bomb... In a nut shell, all that extra crap serves no positive or useful purpose, and only serves to create doubts about the country that shouldn't have been created.
War is hell. In America, so many romanticize war, blurring the horror it causes on both sides. This is why we can fund the military so profusely, but can't and don't care to support the troops that come back ailing.

Why not get the entire debate? I'm not sure if I understand what's wrong with this perspective? It's the truth! Why would you want to suppress any of this?!

Why in the world would someone decide to write a history book for schools that casts unnecessary doubts on the decision to drop the bomb, and leads some to question whether or not America was the bad guy in WWII?
Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers. What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves.

Why would someone write a history book that tells of the difficult decision our president made to drop the bomb, that teaches us that that decision was based on the best information available and done without malice, and done so in order to end the war with Japan and save thousands of American lives... and then in the same book, publish speculation from the presidents detractors and from enemy soldiers from the war, that basically accuses America of uselessly murdering 100's of thousands of innocent Japanese and casts doubt on the presidents motives and intention?
Because both perspective are valuable. Just give the info and let them decide for themselves.

Why would anyone think it's a good idea to make our kids have to live the pain and suffering of the bomb through the eyes of the victims, when the kids already know the number of people who were killed instantly and were told about the countless thousands who suffered from radiation poisoning long after the bomb was dropped? It's bad enough as a kid just knowing the ramifications of that decision, but to then turn around and make them have to live it through the eyes of the victims is just wrong. It's an attempt to try an over ride the logic and rational behind the decision, and create animosity through sympathy.
Because they need to know war is horrible, sickening, painfully and sometimes needed. War should always be the last resort, but if you make it some fantasy like a video game, you reduce the fear of war. War should be feared! It should never be something we rush into.

That is an example of how 20 years of gradually altering the history books is in fact the political indoctrination our kids, and shows clearly how that indoctrination can, and without a doubt does, result in many of our kids growing up and becoming pessimistic adults, who don't take much pride in the country and don't believe in American exceptionalism.

I'm sure you will simply laugh this whole thing off, but believe me it's nothing to laugh at. If things don't change soon, we are going to end up with a society full of people that no longer see America as a champion of freedom, but the enemy of it. We'll end up with a country controlled by people who view America with the same contempt as Ward Churchill and 60's radicals like Bill Ayers do. We'll be finished because a people without pride = a nation without value.
Hiding the truth and whitewash facts is political indoctrination. That's what you're advertising... and it's definitely not something we should buy.
 
Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum changes that would promote patriotism | Fox News

I'm with the students on this one. Complete bs on the part of that school board. No curriculum should be biased or censored, just straight facts.
So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?
 
So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?

No, that is not "understanding"

It is "trolling"
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Repeating the same tired line because you were schooled doesn't change the fact that you flailed terribly in this thread.

I proved my point. Get over it.
 
So am I correct in understanding the students want want to shun citizenship, patriotism, and the free-market system? Students want to disrespect authority, disrespect individual rights, and encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike and disregard of the law?
It is not unusual for young people to feel this way but the adults are expected to have greater maturity and wisdom. Now the differences between the students and their adult teachers has become blurred.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

If you were taught that America didn't conquer any land or become occupiers of any foreign government, then you were taught wrong. There's no easier way to put it. Why would you want to pass on this incorrect information to your children and your children's children?

Of course we occupied them right after the war, but my point was that we didn't take over Japan and make it the 51st state.

We had to occupy them for a while not only to make sure they couldn't threaten us or any of their neighbors, but we had to help the Japanese people who were starving and had always been treated like crap by their imperial government. We introduced long over due societal reforms, like establishing rights for women, freedom of speech through a free press, we established labor laws and labor standards, introduced education reform and we broke up the corporate monopolies that had always prevented the Japanese people from making a better lives for themselves.

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but in the end, our 6 year presence their gave the Japanese people more freedom than they had ever known and set them on a path that in less than 30 years would see them become a world economic surper power... Something that every American should take pride in.


War is hell. In America, so many romanticize war, blurring the horror it causes on both sides. This is why we can fund the military so profusely, but can't and don't care to support the troops that come back ailing.

That has nothing to do with this discussion.



Why not get the entire debate? I'm not sure if I understand what's wrong with this perspective? It's the truth! Why would you want to suppress any of this?!

Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers. What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves.


Let me put it to you this way... Do we take our 5 or 6 year old children to see slasher movies or rent XXX pornos for them to watch? Do we encourage 9, 10 and 11 year old girls to get on birth control and become sexually active? As adults, if we cheat on our taxes or lie to a stranger for our own personal benefit (which at one time or another most have done) do we tell them all about it or involve them in it? Do we tell kids the truth, that the many police officers can't be trusted because they are corrupt, dishonest, will arrest people for no reason, and some will even shoot people for no reason? Of course we don't because those things, and a whole list of others, can have a very negative effect on their mental development, their values, their moral outlook, and can create all kinds of social and psychological problems for them as adults.

Everyone knows that what we teach our kids can and will, directly effect what kind of an adult they will become and although you may not think so, that includes what we teach them about the country that they live in. The "whole debate" as you call it, the graphic blood and guts details of war, and the darker, more shameful chapters in our recent history are things for adults to talk about and discuss, not kids.




Because that's history. It's facts. We are suppose to be free thinkers, not blind followers.

Adults should be free thinkers, but kids have to be taught the things necessary to build a solid social and mental foundation, so they grow up to be respectful, healthy, law abiding citizens who are optimistic about the future and see things from a positive perspective. There's a reason why we don't teach our kids that life sucks, the government sucks, cops suck, the justice system sucks, work sucks, etc...




What you're proposing sounds like we should whitewash the crap and depict America as pure and holy. That's the last thing we need from our youth. We need to teach them to be critical thinkers of not only others but also themselves

If you go back and read my post again, you will see that I'm proposing nothing of the kind. I want history taught with balance and a stronger emphasis on the things that make America great, because it's important for our kids to grow up with a sense of pride in America.

Critical thinking is what they teach in college and for the record, teaching kids that Bush lied us to war and comparing him to Hitler isn't teaching them "critical thinking". It's teaching them to never trust the president, politicians, or the government, and that being American is nothing to be proud of.

I was raised mostly by my grandfather who on the whole, was not a very nice man... There was a long list of things in life and in the world that he hated, but he was a WWII veteran who not only emphasized the importance of being honest, but he taught me to love and respect the country, and to take pride in being an American... And you know what? I'm a very well informed, educated, open minded "critical thinker" that knows America's screw-ups as well as I do it's triumphs... it's victory's as well as it's mistakes... and it's good decisions as well as it's bad ones.

Unlike you self proclaimed "enlightened" ones, I don't feel that as a kid, I was lied to or deceived in any way because I wasn't taught about the enemies version of events in WWII, or heard the accusations of atrocities by American soldiers, or saw videos of doctors peeling the skin off of childrens backs in Japan, or wasn't given a first hand account of a person who's entire family was killed and their face was melted off from the A-bomb, who was treated like a leper, shunned by society and lived on the streets begging for food... Nope, not at all... The truth is, I'm damned glad I wasn't taught those things as a child, because I shutter to think how it would have effected my outlook, my perspective, and how I felt about being an American.

This may surprise you, but the people from my grandfathers generation... you know, the ones who were patriotic, loved the country and were proud to be American... they weren't stupid, didn't live their lives as fools and commanded their own destinies. They worked harder, sacrificed more and did so with a hell of a lot less than what we have today, without demanding that the government step in and help them... Maybe that's why those uninformed, unenlightened, patriotic saps will be forever known as the "Greatest generation".
 
Last edited:
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

No you didn't, jet. Not even close.

I showed you that the masacre was about a labor dispute among other things.

Get over it.

Bye
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Of course we occupied them right after the war, but my point was that we didn't take over Japan and make it the 51st state.

We had to occupy them for a while not only to make sure they couldn't threaten us or any of their neighbors, but we had to help the Japanese people who were starving and had always been treated like crap by their imperial government. We introduced long over due societal reforms, like establishing rights for women, freedom of speech through a free press, we established labor laws and labor standards, introduced education reform and we broke up the corporate monopolies that had always prevented the Japanese people from making a better lives for themselves.

It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but in the end, our 6 year presence their gave the Japanese people more freedom than they had ever known and set them on a path that in less than 30 years would see them become a world economic surper power... Something that every American should take pride in.




That has nothing to do with this discussion.






Let me put it to you this way... Do we take our 5 or 6 year old children to see slasher movies or rent XXX pornos for them to watch? Do we encourage 9, 10 and 11 year old girls to get on birth control and become sexually active? As adults, if we cheat on our taxes or lie to a stranger for our own personal benefit (which at one time or another most have done) do we tell them all about it or involve them in it? Do we tell kids the truth, that the many police officers can't be trusted because they are corrupt, dishonest, will arrest people for no reason, and some will even shoot people for no reason? Of course we don't because those things, and a whole list of others, can have a very negative effect on their mental development, their values, their moral outlook, and can create all kinds of social and psychological problems for them as adults.

Everyone knows that what we teach our kids can and will, directly effect what kind of an adult they will become and although you may not think so, that includes what we teach them about the country that they live in. The "whole debate" as you call it, the graphic blood and guts details of war, and the darker, more shameful chapters in our recent history are things for adults to talk about and discuss, not kids.






Adults should be free thinkers, but kids have to be taught the things necessary to build a solid social and mental foundation, so they grow up to be respectful, healthy, law abiding citizens who are optimistic about the future and see things from a positive perspective. There's a reason why we don't teach our kids that life sucks, the government sucks, cops suck, the justice system sucks, work sucks, etc...






If you go back and read my post again, you will see that I'm proposing nothing of the kind. I want history taught with balance and a stronger emphasis on the things that make America great, because it's important for our kids to grow up with a sense of pride in America.

Critical thinking is what they teach in college and for the record, teaching kids that Bush lied us to war and comparing him to Hitler isn't teaching them "critical thinking". It's teaching them to never trust the president, politicians, or the government, and that being American is nothing to be proud of.

I was raised mostly by my grandfather who on the whole, was not a very nice man... There was a long list of things in life and in the world that he hated, but he was a WWII veteran who not only emphasized the importance of being honest, but he taught me to love and respect the country, and to take pride in being an American... And you know what? I'm a very well informed, educated, open minded "critical thinker" that knows America's screw-ups as well as I do it's triumphs... it's victory's as well as it's mistakes... and it's good decisions as well as it's bad ones.

Unlike you self proclaimed "enlightened" ones, I don't feel that as a kid, I was lied to or deceived in any way because I wasn't taught about the enemies version of events in WWII, or heard the accusations of atrocities by American soldiers, or saw videos of doctors peeling the skin off of childrens backs in Japan, or wasn't given a first hand account of a person who's entire family was killed and their face was melted off from the A-bomb, who was treated like a leper, shunned by society and lived on the streets begging for food... Nope, not at all... The truth is, I'm damned glad I wasn't taught those things as a child, because I shutter to think how it would have effected my outlook, my perspective, and how I felt about being an American.

This may surprise you, but the people from my grandfathers generation... you know, the ones who were patriotic, loved the country and were proud to be American... they weren't stupid, didn't live their lives as fools and commanded their own destinies. They worked harder, sacrificed more and did so with a hell of a lot less than what we have today, without demanding that the government step in and help them... Maybe that's why those uninformed, unenlightened, patriotic saps will be forever known as the "Greatest generation".
You're an adult schooling an adolescent.
 
Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Worth reading but the link didn't work.

The Left's 'Wars' On children, on young adults and on basic American principles.
By Pete du Pont

March 28, 2014 11:06 a.m. ET

The midterm elections are just over seven months away and the left has unleashed its usual rhetoric about the Republican "war on women." It's baseless political pandering of the worst kind, but not something the Republicans can ignore, as it will no doubt be furthered by a mainstream media that is biased, gullible or both.

While Republicans are debunking this trope, they would do well to highlight some of the left's "wars."

First is the war on children, waged by Democrats and their allies in the teachers unions. The tools of the school choice movement—vouchers, scholarships and charter schools—are simply about giving a reprieve to low-income children sentenced to failing schools. Many public schools provide excellent environments for learning, but not all do.

Giving all families the ability to pursue a better education for their children—the same ability the president, members of Congress, and wealthy liberals have—is American to the core. A "good for thee but not for me" approach, evidenced in administration attacks on choice programs in the District of Columbia and Louisiana, seems the ultimate in hypocrisy.

The Democrats' loyalty to the teachers unions is understandable since the union money, votes and volunteers are so important to their electoral prospects. But that does not make the damage any less significant for the children stuck in failed schools.

Republicans should also stress the Democratic Party's war on young adults. ObamaCare penalizes young adults by coercing them to purchase and pay more than they should for health insurance at levels they often don't need. Republicans can point to the unemployment rate among young adults, which is higher than that for other age groups, and is at least partially caused by the left's economy-shrinking policies—not just Obamacare, but also excessive regulation and government control or meddling in all parts of the economy.

While they are at it, Republicans could point to the almost reflexive demagoguery of Democrats to any attempt to fix the long-term finances of the Social Security program, making it less likely today's young adults will be able to count on Social Security when they are older.

Perhaps more frightening, we see the insidious war being waged by the left on principles that have made our nation a beacon of hope and opportunity for over two centuries. From this administration's view that it is free to enforce only the laws with which it agrees, to its attempts to avoid political fallout by unilaterally altering provisions of the ObamaCare law, we see a disregard for the principle of the rule of law.

Likewise the principle of state control, particularly with the Justice Department attacks on voter ID laws passed by states and its ludicrous claim that asking =a voter to show ID qualifies as intimidation. This, from the same Justice Department that did all it could to avoid prosecuting actual voter intimidation in 2008 by members of the New Black Panther Party in Philadelphia.

We see the Internal Revenue Service used as a political tool to stifle the free-speech rights of Americans who disagree with the President. President Obama initially, and rightly, labeled such actions outrageous, but his administration has since been stonewalling Congress and setting up what appears to be a whitewash, a Justice Department investigation headed by one of Mr. Obama's political contributors. Religious freedom is another right the left treats as nothing more than an inconvenience, most starkly in its overriding of conscience objections by the ObamaCare birth-control mandates.

Even our nation's bedrock principle of "E pluribus unum" is diminished by the left's electoral strategy of divide and conquer—of splintering Americans along lines of race, sex, class and income level and stoking resentments for political gain. Not for decades have we seen anything like the level of demonization of individuals we've seen in Washington recently, from the president's disrespect of business owners, to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's attacks on private citizens as "un-American."

It's all so wrong, and the Democrats know it's wrong (or they should). But they won't stop, and it's up to the Republicans to make their case to the American people.
 
Back
Top Bottom