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Thread: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

  1. #211
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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    So, the American colonies just bowed down to George III and did his bidding without question... Just like Scotland and Ireland did. Just the way the French bowed to their king, and to this day go along with the program uncomplaining.

    Read your history dude: apparently Tyrone G. Parks did.
    no the founders wrote to the king to hear their grievances several times, which he did not listen too.

    then they took the road of revolution, not the road of protest.

    its time you read history instead of spouting non -sense, and being constantly wrong.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Well, number one; you’re talking about Europeans / English people who settled the east coast in the 17th century. These were the very same English / Europeans who had been exercising genocide in the Gaelic countries for about 500 hundred years by then. These same Europeans / English coerced both slaves and Indians to fight against American settlers in our Revolution for “land and freedom”. English / European land tenure was a paradigm of strength in the culture; even to this day. And yes, Indian tribes fought each other just the Clans of old fought each other, however America’s need for Manifest Destiny nearly wiped out a lot of Indian tribes and marginalized them to almost uninhabitable land the very same way that the English/ Europeans banished the Irish: “Hell or Connaught!”

    I’m afraid that your analysis misses the point completely: human beings fight no matter who they are or what the reason, so to somehow overlook real history only makes the point about why these kids were smart enough to walk in the first place, and your analysis only iterates the conclusion that conservative ideology has no place in American education.
    The many Amerindian tribes had the same goal of "Maifest Destiny" as did the Euros. The Pueblo Indians were exterminated wholesale before Spanish can into the territory. The Displaced Apaches exterminated those tribes until they were defeated.

    However, victorious Native Tribes did not have policy of giving their defeated enemies reservations with government benefits---they usually just killed the men and took some the women and children as war booty. Native Americans were wiping each other out long before Columbus---and that was over the entire landmass of the Americas.

    The real history of America leaves out all the ugly details of fighting and genocide---unless it was White-on-Them.

    I support a real and honest coverage of all people in history---all held to the very same standards as Whitey.
    “Egotist, n. A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.”
    ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post

    I'm with the students on this one. Complete bs on the part of that school board. No curriculum should be biased or censored, just straight facts.
    Am I missing something here and the school board is looking to put in fictional information into the history books? Because if not, then your last line doesn't really make a ton of sense.

    I've never in my life seen a history book that included 100% of the history on the subject it covers. Every history book I've ever seen picked and choose what parts of history the writer felt was most important to highlight. I can understand a possible disagreement with the school boards perspective of how said historical information should be selected...but I'm confused as this notion that somehow any kind of history teaching is ever completely 100% unbiased straight fact. Such is almost impossible. The very notion of human nature is going to impart some bias on what the writer or teacher ends up selecting to focus on and what they end up selecting not to focus on.

    This seems less about outrage over "censorship", "bias", not using "straight facts" and more about people making the choices making them in a direction some don't like.

    If they had came out and said they wanted to make sure materials "promote social justice, multiculturalism, racial understanding, the benificial roles of government, and the importance of civil disobidence" and "don't encourage or condone american interventionism or unthinking adherance to the law" I think we'd be seeing a similar response, just flipped.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    So, the American colonies just bowed down to George III and did his bidding without question... Just like Scotland and Ireland did. Just the way the French bowed to their king, and to this day go along with the program uncomplaining.

    Read your history dude: apparently Tyrone G. Parks did.
    They never said that protests are wrong or should not be condoned... They said that school shouldn't "encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike or disregard of the law."

    Translated, that means that breaking store front windows to protest tax breaks for the rich shouldn't be encouraged... That setting fire to homes and busineses to protest against the actions of a police officer shouldn't be taught as acceptable behavior... That denying someone their right to speak at a public event, because you may not agree with what they are saying, isn't keeping with the principals that this nation was founded upon.

    There is a right way and a wrong way to express disagreement and they obviously want to make sure that schools are teaching children the correct way to express grievances, and not promoting acts of violence and lawlessness.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Am I missing something here and the school board is looking to put in fictional information into the history books? Because if not, then your last line doesn't really make a ton of sense.
    Adding fictional material is not the only way to bias a curriculum. Censoring any material that contradicts the bias one wants to inject can be just as effective.

    I've never in my life seen a history book that included 100% of the history on the subject it covers. Every history book I've ever seen picked and choose what parts of history the writer felt was most important to highlight. I can understand a possible disagreement with the school boards perspective of how said historical information should be selected...but I'm confused as this notion that somehow any kind of history teaching is ever completely 100% unbiased straight fact. Such is almost impossible. The very notion of human nature is going to impart some bias on what the writer or teacher ends up selecting to focus on and what they end up selecting not to focus on.
    The fact that perfection can't be achieved is a poor reason for not striving for a non-biased curriculum. The decision of what should and should not be excluded should be based on the historical significance of the material being decided upon, and not how well it supports ones' biases. this method of review becomes particularly egregious when it's used to argue against teaching kids about slavery in the US.
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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    They never said that protests are wrong or should not be condoned... They said that school shouldn't "encourage or condone civil disorder, social strike or disregard of the law."

    Translated, that means that breaking store front windows to protest tax breaks for the rich shouldn't be encouraged... That setting fire to homes and busineses to protest against the actions of a police officer shouldn't be taught as acceptable behavior... That denying someone their right to speak at a public event, because you may not agree with what they are saying, isn't keeping with the principals that this nation was founded upon.
    And that unjust laws, such as those that allowed slavery, should be obeyed and that those who break the law in protest of those laws should not be "condoned" Or that the american revolutionaries, who broke the laws of their government, should not be condoned. The truth is, they should be honored.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Adding fictional material is not the only way to bias a curriculum.
    But it's the only way to make it not "factual", which was the specific part of her post I was commenting on.

    The decision of what should and should not be excluded should be based on the historical significance
    And what is or isn't historical significant is largely a question of the bias of the individual/individuals making such a decision.

    Now where you and I may split is whether or not you think "bias" is inherently a bad thing. I don't. Bias CAN be used for bad purposes, but it's not inherently a bad thing.

    As I said, the issue here doesn't seem to be that it's "biased"...it seems to be that it's "biased" in a way that some people disagree with. Which is fine, but that's different then being upset about "bias" in general.

    As to the slave question, has there been any indication from the school board or those supporting this that they plan on not teaching about slavery, or is this simply random speculation that you're tossing out to make it sound worse?

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And that unjust laws, such as those that allowed slavery, should be obeyed and that those who break the law in protest of those laws should not be "condoned" Or that the american revolutionaries, who broke the laws of their government, should not be condoned. The truth is, they should be honored.
    Of course they should, and I see nothing that indicates they want to erase such things from the history books. An example is Rosa Parks... She refused to abide by an unjust and discriminatory law. She broke the law she was opposed to and you will be hard pressed to find anyone here who would claim that her actions weren't justified. But that is a unique, and very rare example that justifies disobeying the law as a means of protest.

    The thing you are overlooking is what they want to promote. They want to promote the things that are consistant with the principals of freedom and liberty this nation stands upon. The war against slavery, against the British, racial discrimination, a woman's right to vote, Rosa Parks, etc... are all about laws and practices that directly contradicted American values and principals, and fighting against them are a proud part of American history... That isn't what they are talking about in that article.

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    But it's the only way to make it not "factual", which was the specific part of her post I was commenting on.
    The post you responded to did not claim that anyone was trying to make the curriculum non-factual. It merely said that the curriculum should be factual



    And what is or isn't historical significant is largely a question of the bias of the individual/individuals making such a decision.

    Now where you and I may split is whether or not you think "bias" is inherently a bad thing. I don't. Bias CAN be used for bad purposes, but it's not inherently a bad thing.

    As I said, the issue here doesn't seem to be that it's "biased"...it seems to be that it's "biased" in a way that some people disagree with. Which is fine, but that's different then being upset about "bias" in general.
    When people talk about bias, they are generally referring to a bias that is generally considered to be "bad". In this case, the bias is ill-conceived for the reason I explained - what is taught should not based on how good it makes the US look; it should be based on historical significance. And while the determination of historical significance can be subject to bias, that doesn't mean we should put "making america look good" above all else.

    As to the slave question, has there been any indication from the school board or those supporting this that they plan on not teaching about slavery, or is this simply random speculation that you're tossing out to make it sound worse?
    Yes, I quoted a school board member using the teaching of slavery as an example of something that doesn't support the goals of this school board.

    I also think it's naive to assume that there isn't an easily identifiable political agenda behind this school board's actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Of course they should, and I see nothing that indicates they want to erase such things from the history books. An example is Rosa Parks... She refused to abide by an unjust and discriminatory law. She broke the law she was opposed to and you will be hard pressed to find anyone here who would claim that her actions weren't justified. But that is a unique, and very rare example that justifies disobeying the law as a means of protest.

    The thing you are overlooking is what they want to promote. They want to promote the things that are consistant with the principals of freedom and liberty this nation stands upon. The war against slavery, against the British, racial discrimination, a woman's right to vote, Rosa Parks, etc... are all about laws and practices that directly contradicted American values and principals, and fighting against them are a proud part of American history... That isn't what they are talking about in that article.
    I know exactly what they want to promote - the idea that it is always wrong to protest and to break unjust laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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