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Thread: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    That's not really true.

    China was a bigger supporter of the Khmer Rouge and remember it was the Vietnamese who eventually took them out.

    Once the Vietnamese invaded (supported by the Soviet Union), China launched an invasion of North Vietnam, China the USA and a few others supported the Cambodian government in exile which did include the Khmer Rouge.

    I know you only like rosy tinted visions of the past, but the fact of the matter is for better or worst, the US has supported some pretty grizzly characters.
    Yes, it is really true. Stop taking one frame from history and try to insist that it represents the entire show.

    I know we've supported some murderous bastards, but the Khmer Rouge wasn't one of them. If you want to smear America, at least get your facts straight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Are you calling me a liar along with my father?

    Perhaps the KR were allied with the Chinese at some point but not when my dad was training battalions of them.
    Most likely, you misunderstood what he told you, or remembering it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #33
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Sure. But I also remember reading in history books when planes and tanks were poo pooed by the alleged experts.
    And now you're poo-pooing infantry units...opposite side of the same coin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #34
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I had the pleasure of visiting Istanbul of a few days about 5 years ago. What a fascinating place. You do feel like you are 1/2 in a modern European city and 1/2 in the middle east. That said, I think Turkey is the real 'swing state' in the battle against ISIS. They are certainly do what they feel is best for Turkey, which might include staying far away from the US position on this.

    What we are dealing with right now is an incredible mess. I am afraid without substantive middle east participation (established middle east governments committing substantial men with guns) this is doomed for failure. You can not win a war with air strikes alone. If the US commits troops without middle eastern participation, you might have some short-term success, but you are more likely to have long-term failure (and likely make matters worse). "Middle East participation" does not mean "moderate rebels" in Syria (whatever a moderate rebel is?). They have their issues and we will never know what side they are on. There is a substantial risk with them that they take our guns and money and we later find those guns pointed at us (... see Afghan Army). IMHO, if the Turks and Saudis don't own this, its a lost cause and we should stand clear.

    I am struck about how similar the arguments for war (ok, military assistance) are now as they were in 2003... lots of fear mongering, a coalition of the willing (which means token participation by others) and a naive suggestion that American's won't have to get dirty (or killed)...

    unfortunately the saudis are more worried about the iranians.
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I had the pleasure of visiting Istanbul of a few days about 5 years ago. What a fascinating place. You do feel like you are 1/2 in a modern European city and 1/2 in the middle east. That said, I think Turkey is the real 'swing state' in the battle against ISIS. They are certainly do what they feel is best for Turkey, which might include staying far away from the US position on this.

    What we are dealing with right now is an incredible mess. I am afraid without substantive middle east participation (established middle east governments committing substantial men with guns) this is doomed for failure. You can not win a war with air strikes alone. If the US commits troops without middle eastern participation, you might have some short-term success, but you are more likely to have long-term failure (and likely make matters worse). "Middle East participation" does not mean "moderate rebels" in Syria (whatever a moderate rebel is?). They have their issues and we will never know what side they are on. There is a substantial risk with them that they take our guns and money and we later find those guns pointed at us (... see Afghan Army). IMHO, if the Turks and Saudis don't own this, its a lost cause and we should stand clear.

    I am struck about how similar the arguments for war (ok, military assistance) are now as they were in 2003... lots of fear mongering, a coalition of the willing (which means token participation by others) and a naive suggestion that American's won't have to get dirty (or killed)...
    I agree that air strikes alone won't accomplish the mission. That there has to be ground forces to push home the advantage the air strikes bring to the table. Without ground forces, Iraqi, Saudi, perhaps Syrian if we can ever get over our fetish of getting rid of Assad, air strikes alone won't work. If the Arabs of the region do not perceive ISIS as a threat to them, either they are foolish or they are sitting on their hands waiting for the U.S. to do all the work.

    The majority of the Iraqi people and also the Syrians must want to be rid of ISIS. They must want to be rid of ISIS enough to do something about them themselves. I agree without that want or willingness or whatever you want to call it. That mess will only become worse. Apparently the Iraqi didn't feel the Maliki government was worth fighting for, we will have to wait and see what they think or feel about this new government. But somehow I do not think it will make that much difference.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    If it helps i can find out exactly when that was. It was 70 to 71 I think, but i could be off a year or two. It doesn't surprise me if you didn't know much about it. We were never officially there IIRR.
    Helping and advising Lon Nol during that time frame fight the Khmer Rouge was what we were doing. MEDT-C in Cambodia itself and perhaps CCN or MACV-SOG from Vietnam. We were bombing the heck out of the Khmer Rouge and their allies, the NVA at that time. We were sending in tons of supplies, ammo, equipment from Thailand and up the Mekong to Lon Nol during that time period to fight the KR.

    I just think whom he was advising and training you got mixed up.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  7. #37
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I am sure Turkey sees it the same way. Now they are willing to ship arms to the Syrian Rebels and help in their training. But even so, I am sure Turkey weighed the risks vs. the potential reward and decided to stay out of the ISIS mess
    They're buying the Iraqi oil ISIS is selling, they're hospitalizing wounded guerrillas, they're letting foreign jihadists pass through the country. So Turkey is not exactly "staying out."
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    My guess is those of you that think the air strikes are minor wouldn't think so when the 500 pounders start falling on or near your position. Having loaded and armed fighter jets I wouldn't want to be within a mile of that ordinance. The ol' man that called in air strikes to the perimeter of his Special Forces camps in Vietnam says he had to hold on to something they make the ground shake so much. Both of my parents have experienced bombs and mortars and say there is nothing to compare it to. My mother experienced it in WWII as a little girl. Even had an allied fighter pilot strafe her as she ran with her mother.
    B-52 carpet bombing from the perspective of a Vietcong:

    The first few times I experienced a B-52 attack it seemed, as I strained to press myself into the bunker floor, that I had been caught in the Apocalypse. The terror was complete. One lost control of bodily functions as the mind screamed incomprehensible orders to get out. On one occasion a Soviet delegation was visiting our ministry when a particularly short-notice warning came through. When it was over, no one had been hurt, but the entire delegation had sustained considerable to its dignity uncontrollable trembling and wet pants the all-too-obvious outward signs of inner convulsions. The visitors could have spared themselves their feelings of embarrassment; each of their hosts was a veteran of the same symptoms.

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    B-52 Dropping Lots & Lots of Bombs - Carpet Bombing - YouTube
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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And now you're poo-pooing infantry units...opposite side of the same coin.
    No I'm poo pooing the generals that once said planes and tanks would be a waste of time. Get it?

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    Re: Turkish hostages held by IS in Iraq released

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Helping and advising Lon Nol during that time frame fight the Khmer Rouge was what we were doing. MEDT-C in Cambodia itself and perhaps CCN or MACV-SOG from Vietnam. We were bombing the heck out of the Khmer Rouge and their allies, the NVA at that time. We were sending in tons of supplies, ammo, equipment from Thailand and up the Mekong to Lon Nol during that time period to fight the KR.

    I just think whom he was advising and training you got mixed up.
    No mix up just talked to him at dinner. It was 1972 and he trained 50 battalions. Said something about them being trained in Long Hai and it was a former R& R base. 6 to 12 year olds! No mistake. I think he and I know the difference especially since he was there.

    My dad retired as a Msgt. Special Forces in 1973.

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