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Thread: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This has been perhaps the most democratic poll ever held.
    Russia - that bastion of democracy and occupier of Crimea - disagrees:

    Guardian | Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by face, your View Post
    So what you're saying is you support the right of any minority group anywhere in the world setting up shop within the territory constituted by a lager demographic and then holding a referendum for independence and then expecting the larger demographic going along with such a thing?
    No, I'm not saying that at all.

    I thought socialists were supposed to be anti-Nationalistic, what you're talking about is radical nationalism.
    You obviously don't know much about Spanish politics. The radical nationalism resides within the ranks of the PP-led national government, anti-regionalist and Castilian-supremacist. The Catalan independence movement is much more republican in nature than it is nationalist.

    Furthermore; the Catalans have complete freedom of movement they are not being held within the state against their will they are free to leave the state at any time they choose and move elsewhere within the EU or whatever country that will take them.
    Sort of voluntary ethnic cleansing?
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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Russia - that bastion of democracy and occupier of Crimea - disagrees:

    Guardian | Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote
    Hmmm. Putin's régime rails against electoral irregularities. How will Scotland ever rub out that stain on its honour?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The big difference is that no one raised constitutional objections in the UK. Constitutional objections have been raised in Spain. If Spain's constitutional court upholds those objections, then the constitution would need to be revised to permit such a vote.
    This is true. It demonstrates that a constitution can't always be seen as a bulwark of democracy. Sometimes having a codified constitution is a block on democracy - eliminating choice and outlawing dissent. It protects the state, it protects itself, it corrals political debate within it's limited scope.

    Spain's political leaders will heed public sentiment prior to making any such consequential move, as any democratic society should.
    On what basis do you assume that? A truly democratic state would consider the ongoing sentiments of its electorate and the welfare of all its subjects. Spain, like the vast majority of liberal democratic states, restricts its democratic ambitions rigidly within a four-yearly, elective dictatorship.
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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Scotland is set to become vastly richer over the course of the next few years after scientists have discovered a way to harness the energy of William Wallace violently spinning in his grave.

    Pic related:

    7.jpg

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This is true. It demonstrates that a constitution can't always be seen as a bulwark of democracy. Sometimes having a codified constitution is a block on democracy - eliminating choice and outlawing dissent. It protects the state, it protects itself, it corrals political debate within it's limited scope.
    I'm not aware of any provision in the Spanish constitution that limits the ability of the Catalans for any other people in Spain to participate in the political process. Absent such provisions, I'm not sure it is fair to describe it as a "block on democracy." Democracy and secession referenda are not synonymous.

    On what basis do you assume that? A truly democratic state would consider the ongoing sentiments of its electorate and the welfare of all its subjects. Spain, like the vast majority of liberal democratic states, restricts its democratic ambitions rigidly within a four-yearly, elective dictatorship.
    I wouldn't term regular election cycles a "dictatorship." In the long-term, domestic support is important to sustaining public policy in any democratic society. Without it, new majorities would ultimtely be elected and changes made. Having said that, I see no great clamor in Spain as a whole to overturn the Constitution to incorporate a secession element. We'll see whether such a situation emerges when the Constitutional Court issues its ruling. It probably won't, but we'll see what happens. In the end, whether or not there will be pressure to change the Constitution (assuming the court finds there is no secession authority) will be up to all of Spain's people, as every Spanish citizen has a vested stake in the Constitution. Without doubt, I prefer a united Spain, as the kind of oppressive conditions that would justify secession simply don't exist in today's Spain. Nevertheless, I will respect the choice of Spain's people on that matter.

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Scotland is set to become vastly richer over the course of the next few years after scientists have discovered a way to harness the energy of William Wallace violently spinning in his grave.

    Pic related:

    7.jpg
    Now that was funny.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Scotland is set to become vastly richer over the course of the next few years after scientists have discovered a way to harness the energy of William Wallace violently spinning in his grave.

    Pic related:

    7.jpg
    Scotland doesn't need the advice of a millionaire antisemitic Aussie religious extremist drunk. Even if he paints himself blue.

    Freedom is taken, never offered by the supposed oppressor. Scotland was free, before during and after their free choice.
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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Scotland doesn't need the advice of a millionaire antisemitic Aussie religious extremist drunk. Even if he paints himself blue.
    I don't know that Mel Gibson has offered an opinion on the issue.

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    Re: Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I'm not aware of any provision in the Spanish constitution that limits the ability of the Catalans for any other people in Spain to participate in the political process. Absent such provisions, I'm not sure it is fair to describe it as a "block on democracy."
    It declares the 'indissoluble unity' of Spain. There is no get-out, there is no alternative. There is no provision for a constituent region or nation within Spain to secede. If that isn't a block on democracy, what would you call it?

    Democracy and secession referenda are not synonymous.
    No, not synonymous, but the prohibition of the latter certainly indicates the absence of the former.

    I wouldn't term regular election cycles a "dictatorship." In the long-term, domestic support is important to sustaining public policy in any democratic society. Without it, new majorities would ultimately be elected and changes made.
    'Elective dictatorship' is a pretty widely understood concept that suggests that overall parliamentary majorities can work to the detriment of democratic process and can undermine the functions of constitutional checks and balances, such as the judiciary and regional autonomies. Having a codified constitution can have the effect of safeguarding one branch of government from the over-reach of another, but in the case of the Spanish constitution, it appears to conspire with an authoritarian, Spanish nationalist government to stifle legitimate discussion, debate and decision-making on fundamental constitutional matters?
    Having said that, I see no great clamor in Spain as a whole to overturn the Constitution to incorporate a secession element.
    Then I suggest you are not paying attention. It is the central demand of the Catalan majority opinion, and the idea of secession has been a topic about which the leaders of Galicia and the Basque country both spoke loudly and publicly this week. So, that's the elected leadership of almost a third of the population of Spain advocating constitutional change, not to mention the minority advocates within other autonomous communities. What level must it reach for this to be a 'clamour'?

    We'll see whether such a situation emerges when the Constitutional Court issues its ruling. It probably won't, but we'll see what happens. In the end, whether or not there will be pressure to change the Constitution (assuming the court finds there is no secession authority) will be up to all of Spain's people, as every Spanish citizen has a vested stake in the Constitution.
    You think that a simple declaration from the constitutional court will end the matter? It will not. While the majority of Spaniards may well support the constitution as currently contrived, Castilians are the largest ethnic grouping after all, it is a clear failing that the constitution has no ability to deal with opinion, no matter how strong, that denies the 'indissoluble unity' of the state. Spain, like the US, seems incapable of conceiving of secession without considering the use of arms and violent coercion, as the head of the Guardia Civil has already intimated they are preparing to do.

    Without doubt, I prefer a united Spain, as the kind of oppressive conditions that would justify secession simply don't exist in today's Spain. Nevertheless, I will respect the choice of Spain's people on that matter.
    With respect Don, what you or I prefer isn't particularly relevant, but then it appears that what the Catalan people prefer isn't relevant either.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 09-21-14 at 06:03 AM.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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