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Scotland Rejects Independence From Britain in a Close Vote

shrubnose said:
I seriously doubt that Spain will ever permit a referendum on independence to be held in Catalonia.

And I also seriously doubt that Catalonia will ever be able to secede and defeat the Spanish military.

But I could be wrong, let's wait and see, eh?

Just what Europe needs: A second Spanish civil war. I wonder which side Germany will choose this time around.
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Good point about whether a referendum will be allowed or not but I doubt that there will be a war if any region of any state in europe decides to secede. They have nowhere to go but in the EU.
 
Andalublue said:
I think it's a measure of political maturity that the leadership of a state has the confidence to allow its constituent nationalities to decide whether to remain or to leave a political union. It's political immaturity to do what the PP in Spain are doing and say, despite the very clear will of a very large portion of Catalan society, "it's not for you to decide, it's for all of Spain, because that's what the constitution says."

A constitution is meant to be a tool for the people to use to govern themselves, not a hammer to knock them into acquiescence. I guess this is where the British can see the very real benefit of not having a codified constitution.
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I suspect that once the PP is kicked out of government again next year, then the independence calls will fade a bit, since I suspect the POSE will have to make a coalition government with regional parties.. and the PP wont be able to do that as they are universally hated at the moment due to their idiotic corruption and incompetence.. you see they finally dropped their Franco era abortion law plans... guess there is an election soon!? :)

Catalonian independence would be catastrophic.. not so much for Spain but for Catalonia. The amount of debt that Catalonia has and deficit would crush the newborn nation very fast.

I suspect there might be given more powers to the regions but saying that, not sure what else can be given to regions. They already have healthcare and many other things to deal with and many are doing it rather poorly.... including Catalonia that needed a bailout.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Well, that certainly makes things a lot simpler.

I think that union is ultimately in the best interests of both Scotland and the UK in general. I simply hope that this vote doesn't set the stage for anything worse further down the road.
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I'll bet all the cartographers are pissed.
 
Jerry said:
What does this mean to America?
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Key ally remains united, economy didnt de-stablise which it easily could of with a yes vote as it would of sent shockwaves through Europe, large amount of nato's nuclear weapons can stay where they are...just to name a few
 
shrubnose said:
The inhabitants of that state would be wise to study what happened to the South in the U.S. Civil War.
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LOL Actually if it came to a second war between the states I think Texas will be pretty well off, they have the most number of people in the armed forces (other than California) and there is a very vibrant civilian gun culture over there... ;)
 
I just like that the song "Anarchy in the U.K." won't be suddenly obsolete like "Back in the USSR" is.
 
PoS said:
LOL Actually if it came to a second war between the states I think Texas will be pretty well off, they have the most number of people in the armed forces (other than California) and
there is a very vibrant civilian gun culture over there..
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. ;)
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Plus, judging by some movies, they have a lot of crazy people with chainsaws.
 
How is a 10-point gap a "close vote"?
 
This shows what happens after generations have been subjugated and become emotionally dependent on their oppressor. It is why they lowered the voting age for this to 16 so they could squeeze out the last few needed votes.
 
The "extra" voters mainly voted no. So much for the Stockhausen theory.
 
Andalublue said:
Levying and collecting taxes?
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Quite a bit of that is done on regional level already. Guess you could do income taxes as well, but that would cause problems with money flows to other regions and so on.
 
Andalublue said:
It's political immaturity to do what the PP in Spain are doing and say, despite the very clear will of a very large portion of Catalan society, "it's not for you to decide, it's for all of Spain, because that's what the constitution says."
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I don't agree. Spain's future is up to all of its people, not any single segment. All of Spain's people would be impacted on the issue as to whether Spain continues as a single entity and, therefore, it is unfair to deprive them of their voice over such a consequential decison. If, as was the case in the UK, the large majority of all of Spain's people are willing to grant any ethnic group the chance to leave Spain, then that's also their choice.

However, there should be a broad consensus among all of Spain's people on appropriate constitutional or legal framework or processes to deal with vital issues related to whether or not Spain continues as a single country. Otherwise, if every group were automatically afforded the chance to secede, the most extreme faction(s) would be in a disproportionately strong position to break up established states and such states would be inherently unstable entities.

I'm not sure how Spain's constitution handles such matters. The constitutional process should be respected. Broad consensus among Spain's people (maybe 2/3 or more, but the threshold would have to be defined by Spain's people not any single group) would allow for appropriate constitutional changes. Indecisive outcomes would not and they should not. The continuity of states and the viability of constitutional frameworks are not light matters. Therefore, a large consensus should be a requirement before such grave matters are dealt with.
 
Jerry said:
What does this mean to America?
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That our closest ally and friend in the world will not go through a messy and disruptive break-up. And maybe, that Texas needs to be careful how they proceed, and not allow 16 year olds to vote on succession?
 
Beaudreaux said:
I had no idea, so I went and looked. I think it had to do with the thread titles, not the person posting it.
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Don't lie to me! We all know it's cause your prettier! :p
 
donsutherland1 said:
If, as was the case in the UK, the large majority of all of Spain's people are willing to grant any ethnic group the chance to leave Spain, then that's also their choice.
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That wasn't the case in the UK. No one asked the people of the UK. It was a decision taken purely by politicians, just as no one is asking the people of Spain.

However, there should be a broad consensus among all of Spain's people on appropriate constitutional or legal framework or processes to deal with vital issues related to whether or not Spain continues as a single country. Otherwise, if every group were automatically afforded the chance to secede, the most extreme faction(s) would be in a disproportionately strong position to break up established states and such states would be inherently unstable entities.
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A state that is forcing a region or constituent nation to remain within the state against the wishes of the people of that region is itself inherently unstable. It is being held together through coercion. We have already had the commander of the Guardia Civil (paramilitary police) stating that he believes that if called upon, he would be prepared to use any means necessary to prevent the Catalans holding a referendum.

There is no broad consensus of the appropriate constitutional and legal framework for the future. The Catalans are being forcibly prevented from expressing their democratic will.
 
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