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Thread: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Yep. OP's Fox link says that the only time students don't have to wear uniforms is on "free dress days," and 9-11 wasn't one of them. Besides, the kids are all free to wear whatever they want after they return home from school.
    I'm all about remembering 9/11 and both my kids are well aware of it, even though both were born after the fact. And as long as the school wasn't playing "favors" for other groups/events this is a non-issue. I actually wouldn't have an issue if every school from K-9 required uniforms. As far as I'm concerned kids are there to learn, not display the latest fashion's.

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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Children do not have first amendment rights.

    Are you over 18? Really? and on your own, paying your own bills?
    I believe the SCOTUS upheld that students in the primary school systems in this country retained their rights, as well as parents. Now, I will concede that the school has a uniform in place, and allows for days where there is kind of a 'free pass' day to wear their own clothes from time to time, however, where this school fails IMHO, and many of these "No Tolerance" policies fail is they do away with common sense. It was 9/11, and the child wasn't wearing anything rude, or distracting, but rather something honoring the fallen...
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I believe the SCOTUS upheld that students in the primary school systems in this country retained their rights, as well as parents. Now, I will concede that the school has a uniform in place, and allows for days where there is kind of a 'free pass' day to wear their own clothes from time to time, however, where this school fails IMHO, and many of these "No Tolerance" policies fail is they do away with common sense. It was 9/11, and the child wasn't wearing anything rude, or distracting, but rather something honoring the fallen...
    That's all true, and, if the school didn't require uniforms, then they wouldn't have had a reason to disallow the shirt.

    Student dress codes are a can of worms, and always have been. Kids will try to push the envelope, styles are constantly changing, and the school really isn't there to instill a fashion sense in the students.

    Today's big thing is gang colors and styles. Most schools have a prohibition of gang attire, but just what does that mean? It changes constantly, and takes up the teacher and administrator's time trying to keep up. The logical answer is school uniforms. If the kids want to express themselves through their clothing, let them do it while under the supervision of their parents.

    As for first amendment rights, kids' rights always end where their parents say they do, and the schools operate in place of parents when the kids are at school.
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Then the parents and school officials need to meet to determine if adding 9-11 as a special day is something they want to do. In the meantime, there are lots of occasions that could be honored, and you either have a uniform policy or you don't.

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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That's all true, and, if the school didn't require uniforms, then they wouldn't have had a reason to disallow the shirt.

    Student dress codes are a can of worms, and always have been. Kids will try to push the envelope, styles are constantly changing, and the school really isn't there to instill a fashion sense in the students.

    Today's big thing is gang colors and styles. Most schools have a prohibition of gang attire, but just what does that mean? It changes constantly, and takes up the teacher and administrator's time trying to keep up. The logical answer is school uniforms. If the kids want to express themselves through their clothing, let them do it while under the supervision of their parents.

    As for first amendment rights, kids' rights always end where their parents say they do, and the schools operate in place of parents when the kids are at school.
    I agree with what you are saying, however, this wasn't a case of 'gang colors' or anything of the sort. The school says it has days where it "suspends" the uniform code, and allows students to wear their own clothes, and the problem I see with these rigid policies, is it doesn't take into consideration the difference between say 'gang attire', and a respectful t-shirt honoring the fallen of 9/11. And with their out of hand straight denial without a better communication of why the student couldn't wear the shirt they sound callous, and uncaring of others feelings on the matter.

    On the subject of schools taking the role of the parent during school hours, I would only say that in some ways that is an apt description, in others it is not. For example, if the parent has explicit instructions for the school during hours, then the school should be bound to comply within reason. To often the school tries to take on the role of the parent to the exclusion of the actual parent, as if they hold more authority, that is a recipe for confrontation.

    My point is that the school is not in many cases including this one, using their common sense in how this will look to people reading the report about it...
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Then the parents and school officials need to meet to determine if adding 9-11 as a special day is something they want to do. In the meantime, there are lots of occasions that could be honored, and you either have a uniform policy or you don't.
    Agreed, and the parents should have thought about that policy before just sending little Suzy to school in something other than the proscribed code without knowing for sure if she could wear the shirt that day. Surely they have a phone.

    But my problem is not with the fact that the school told the girl to change to the uniform, but rather how they addressed the situation.
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I agree with what you are saying, however, this wasn't a case of 'gang colors' or anything of the sort. The school says it has days where it "suspends" the uniform code, and allows students to wear their own clothes, and the problem I see with these rigid policies, is it doesn't take into consideration the difference between say 'gang attire', and a respectful t-shirt honoring the fallen of 9/11. And with their out of hand straight denial without a better communication of why the student couldn't wear the shirt they sound callous, and uncaring of others feelings on the matter.

    On the subject of schools taking the role of the parent during school hours, I would only say that in some ways that is an apt description, in others it is not. For example, if the parent has explicit instructions for the school during hours, then the school should be bound to comply within reason. To often the school tries to take on the role of the parent to the exclusion of the actual parent, as if they hold more authority, that is a recipe for confrontation.

    My point is that the school is not in many cases including this one, using their common sense in how this will look to people reading the report about it...
    No, it wasn't a case of gang colors or anything of the sort. It was a case of requiring school uniforms. The best rationale for requiring uniforms is that the school officials don't have to waste time splitting hairs about which clothes are OK, and which are not.

    The law is in loco parentis, meaning that schools serve in place of the parents. Sure, if a parent makes a reasonable request, then the school will abide by it, but they can't shirk the responsibility of compliance with the law.

    And while this case looks bad to people merely reading the headlines, once you read beyond it is a perfectly reasonable action.
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Explain how it would be relevant to what happened either way.
    Just not wasting my time explaining the obvious, that happens too much here.
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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    No, it wasn't a case of gang colors or anything of the sort. It was a case of requiring school uniforms. The best rationale for requiring uniforms is that the school officials don't have to waste time splitting hairs about which clothes are OK, and which are not.

    The law is in loco parentis, meaning that schools serve in place of the parents. Sure, if a parent makes a reasonable request, then the school will abide by it, but they can't shirk the responsibility of compliance with the law.

    And while this case looks bad to people merely reading the headlines, once you read beyond it is a perfectly reasonable action.
    No one said anything about "breaking the law".... I said "reasonable"....Glad you agree.

    And I disagree that it only looks bad to those "reading the headlines", or skimming the story. My point is the communication aspect of it. To me it looks like an 'educrat' speaking from an arrogant stance of insensitivity as to how this would be reported. That all too often happens with those within the education system.

    Think about the 7year old that ate his sandwich into the shape of a gun, and was suspended under the "weapons" rule in the school....It's dumb and reasonable people know it.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Girl, 11, told by school not to wear 9/11 T-shirt

    And speaking of headlines, how did the media come to learn about this 9-11 t-shirt episode? Every day of the school week, some kid breaks a uniform rule. What made this one student and one t-shirt special?

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