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Thread: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    I quite agree that the court's decisions have been confusing and contradictory. It appears to me that recent decisions tend to be leaning more toward toleration which I believe is a mistake in a world filled with religious violence. Dominionists, Christian Nationalists, Reconstructionists, all have their own reasons for pushing for a policy recognizing Christianity and accepting expressions of Christianity in the public sphere. A policy of appeasement toward those playing the victimhood card whenever they are not allowed to use public facilities to promote their own religious views will not be effective in the long run, and we will be faced with violence between different sects of Christianity.
    Like it or not, this country and the rest of the western world have had a fight to the finish forced on them by savage, supremacist fanatics--who knows how many hundreds of thousands of them--who claim to be motivated by Islam. And, like it or not, we are their natural enemy. The traditions, laws, and culture of the United States have been heavily influenced by the English Protestants who founded it. That's why there are those seas of white crosses in the Normandy cemeteries, interspersed here and there with a Star of David. That's why the first Congress provided funds for a chaplain to lead prayers, and why even today state legislatures open their sessions with such prayers. That's why we have the other mixtures of church and state that Justice Breyer mentioned, and why they don't violate the Constitution. That's why, if a fire should start in the kitchen of First Methodist as the ladies in the flock are preparing for the bake sale, the guys in the local city firehouse don't have to just sit there and let the place burn down.

    I think this is a very dangerous time for Americans to be doubting or apologizing for any part of their heritage, including the religious part. Any God damned Muslim jihadist savage can see the lack of conviction, and it can only convince them we are not only unbelievers, but decadent ones, ripe for the plucking. They sure as hell don't lack any conviction about [I]their[/I} religion, and every show of hand-wringing, navel-gazing doubt about Western Civilization encourages them--and puts us in worse danger. Well-meaning people here may see political correctness and multiculturalism as considerate and nice. But to supremacists who would never dream of singing the praises of foreign cultures while being diffident about their own, the sight of Americans doing that habitually can only be proof of our weakness. I believe the risk we face from religious fanatics abroad is so serious that for the time being, at least, I'll gladly accept the risk any religious nuts at home may pose, just for the sake of solidarity.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Like it or not, this country and the rest of the western world have had a fight to the finish forced on them by savage, supremacist fanatics--who knows how many hundreds of thousands of them--who claim to be motivated by Islam. And, like it or not, we are their natural enemy. The traditions, laws, and culture of the United States have been heavily influenced by the English Protestants who founded it. That's why there are those seas of white crosses in the Normandy cemeteries, interspersed here and there with a Star of David. That's why the first Congress provided funds for a chaplain to lead prayers, and why even today state legislatures open their sessions with such prayers. That's why we have the other mixtures of church and state that Justice Breyer mentioned, and why they don't violate the Constitution. That's why, if a fire should start in the kitchen of First Methodist as the ladies in the flock are preparing for the bake sale, the guys in the local city firehouse don't have to just sit there and let the place burn down.

    I think this is a very dangerous time for Americans to be doubting or apologizing for any part of their heritage, including the religious part. Any God damned Muslim jihadist savage can see the lack of conviction, and it can only convince them we are not only unbelievers, but decadent ones, ripe for the plucking. They sure as hell don't lack any conviction about [I]their[/I} religion, and every show of hand-wringing, navel-gazing doubt about Western Civilization encourages them--and puts us in worse danger. Well-meaning people here may see political correctness and multiculturalism as considerate and nice. But to supremacists who would never dream of singing the praises of foreign cultures while being diffident about their own, the sight of Americans doing that habitually can only be proof of our weakness. I believe the risk we face from religious fanatics abroad is so serious that for the time being, at least, I'll gladly accept the risk any religious nuts at home may pose, just for the sake of solidarity.
    This is one scary post.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    This is one scary post.
    Maybe you're easily frightened. I keep in mind that we are the ones with the dozen aircraft carriers and the hundred heavy bombers and the six thousand H-bombs, and not the Muslims who like to talk about fighting. If any of the God-forsaken sandpiles they call their countries wants a serious fight with the U.S., they would do well to think long and hard about that. We should stop worrying about what they might do to us, and make them start worrying about what the U.S.might do.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Like it or not, this country and the rest of the western world have had a fight to the finish forced on them by savage, supremacist fanatics--who knows how many hundreds of thousands of them--who claim to be motivated by Islam. And, like it or not, we are their natural enemy. The traditions, laws, and culture of the United States have been heavily influenced by the English Protestants who founded it. That's why there are those seas of white crosses in the Normandy cemeteries, interspersed here and there with a Star of David. That's why the first Congress provided funds for a chaplain to lead prayers, and why even today state legislatures open their sessions with such prayers. That's why we have the other mixtures of church and state that Justice Breyer mentioned, and why they don't violate the Constitution. That's why, if a fire should start in the kitchen of First Methodist as the ladies in the flock are preparing for the bake sale, the guys in the local city firehouse don't have to just sit there and let the place burn down.

    I think this is a very dangerous time for Americans to be doubting or apologizing for any part of their heritage, including the religious part. Any God damned Muslim jihadist savage can see the lack of conviction, and it can only convince them we are not only unbelievers, but decadent ones, ripe for the plucking. They sure as hell don't lack any conviction about [I]their[/I} religion, and every show of hand-wringing, navel-gazing doubt about Western Civilization encourages them--and puts us in worse danger. Well-meaning people here may see political correctness and multiculturalism as considerate and nice. But to supremacists who would never dream of singing the praises of foreign cultures while being diffident about their own, the sight of Americans doing that habitually can only be proof of our weakness. I believe the risk we face from religious fanatics abroad is so serious that for the time being, at least, I'll gladly accept the risk any religious nuts at home may pose, just for the sake of solidarity.
    spoken like the American taliban
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Like it or not, this country and the rest of the western world have had a fight to the finish forced on them by savage, supremacist fanatics--who knows how many hundreds of thousands of them--who claim to be motivated by Islam. And, like it or not, we are their natural enemy. The traditions, laws, and culture of the United States have been heavily influenced by the English Protestants who founded it. That's why there are those seas of white crosses in the Normandy cemeteries, interspersed here and there with a Star of David. That's why the first Congress provided funds for a chaplain to lead prayers, and why even today state legislatures open their sessions with such prayers. That's why we have the other mixtures of church and state that Justice Breyer mentioned, and why they don't violate the Constitution. That's why, if a fire should start in the kitchen of First Methodist as the ladies in the flock are preparing for the bake sale, the guys in the local city firehouse don't have to just sit there and let the place burn down.

    I think this is a very dangerous time for Americans to be doubting or apologizing for any part of their heritage, including the religious part. Any God damned Muslim jihadist savage can see the lack of conviction, and it can only convince them we are not only unbelievers, but decadent ones, ripe for the plucking. They sure as hell don't lack any conviction about [I]their[/I} religion, and every show of hand-wringing, navel-gazing doubt about Western Civilization encourages them--and puts us in worse danger. Well-meaning people here may see political correctness and multiculturalism as considerate and nice. But to supremacists who would never dream of singing the praises of foreign cultures while being diffident about their own, the sight of Americans doing that habitually can only be proof of our weakness. I believe the risk we face from religious fanatics abroad is so serious that for the time being, at least, I'll gladly accept the risk any religious nuts at home may pose, just for the sake of solidarity.
    Our freedom of religion tradition is in far more danger from American Christian fundamentalists supporting Christian Nationalism or Dominionism than from any other threat. Every time some well-meaning citizen says a breech of our separation clause is just not important, we should just let it ride, keep the peace, we are one step closer to losing that freedom.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Our freedom of religion tradition is in far more danger from American Christian fundamentalists supporting Christian Nationalism or Dominionism than from any other threat. Every time some well-meaning citizen says a breech of our separation clause is just not important, we should just let it ride, keep the peace, we are one step closer to losing that freedom.
    Somehow I doubt I will lose any sleep tonight worrying about the dread threat Christian fundamentalists supposedly pose to our First Amendment freedoms. To hear you tell it, the U.S. is only a few steps away from becoming a Christian theocracy--sort of a Tehran West. Some people might think that by relying on more and more outlandish exaggerations to sustain your argument, you're showing how weak it is. Others might think it shows the sort of irrational hostility toward Christianity that's so often on display in forums like this one.

    The Bill of Rights originally applied only to the United States, and not to the states. In a long series of decisions starting about 1900, the Supreme Court held that first one and then another provision of the BOR was "incorporated" in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and through it, applied to the states. The Court did not apply the Free Exercise Clause to the states until Cantwell v. Connecticut in 1940, and it did not apply the Establishment Clause to them until Everson v. Board of Education in 1947.

    During the century-and-a-half that separates the Bill of Rights from the World War Two era, then, any state could have restricted the free exercise of religion as far as it pleased, or authorized any amount of religious involvement in government. It could even have established its own official church. If most states had done that, it would hardly have mattered that the Establishment Clause barred Congress from declaring an official national religion; we would have had a de facto theocracy anyway.

    This was unquestionably a more openly religious nation during most of the time between 1791 and 1947 than it is now. The dangers you claim religious extremists pose to our freedoms should have been even greater during that century-and-one-half. And yet no state ever even came close to declaring official religion. Must have been a miracle.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Maybe you're easily frightened. I keep in mind that we are the ones with the dozen aircraft carriers and the hundred heavy bombers and the six thousand H-bombs, and not the Muslims who like to talk about fighting. If any of the God-forsaken sandpiles they call their countries wants a serious fight with the U.S., they would do well to think long and hard about that. We should stop worrying about what they might do to us, and make them start worrying about what the U.S.might do.
    You're talking to children.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Somehow I doubt I will lose any sleep tonight worrying about the dread threat Christian fundamentalists supposedly pose to our First Amendment freedoms. To hear you tell it, the U.S. is only a few steps away from becoming a Christian theocracy--sort of a Tehran West. Some people might think that by relying on more and more outlandish exaggerations to sustain your argument, you're showing how weak it is. Others might think it shows the sort of irrational hostility toward Christianity that's so often on display in forums like this one.

    The Bill of Rights originally applied only to the United States, and not to the states. In a long series of decisions starting about 1900, the Supreme Court held that first one and then another provision of the BOR was "incorporated" in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and through it, applied to the states. The Court did not apply the Free Exercise Clause to the states until Cantwell v. Connecticut in 1940, and it did not apply the Establishment Clause to them until Everson v. Board of Education in 1947.

    During the century-and-a-half that separates the Bill of Rights from the World War Two era, then, any state could have restricted the free exercise of religion as far as it pleased, or authorized any amount of religious involvement in government. It could even have established its own official church. If most states had done that, it would hardly have mattered that the Establishment Clause barred Congress from declaring an official national religion; we would have had a de facto theocracy anyway.

    This was unquestionably a more openly religious nation during most of the time between 1791 and 1947 than it is now. The dangers you claim religious extremists pose to our freedoms should have been even greater during that century-and-one-half. And yet no state ever even came close to declaring official religion. Must have been a miracle.
    The dangers from Christian Nationalists are real. That many are not aware of them or even know what they are or what they believe and propose for this country is amazing in this time of information overload. When they say that the Founders intended this to be a Christian Nation and it should be, most simply accept that Christians are generally a kindly people who care for the poor and sick, etc. They have no idea what Christian Reconstruction stands for and would be amazed that any Christian would accept such views these days. IOW, Christian Reconstructionists would change this country to their version of Christianity, not your everyday church on mainstreet version.

    Christian Reconstructionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    prominent advocates of Christian Reconstructionism have written that according to their understanding, God's law approves of the death penalty not only for murder, but also for propagators of all forms of idolatry,[8][9] active homosexuals,[10] adulterers, practitioners of witchcraft, and blasphemers,[11] and perhaps even recalcitrant youths[12] (see the List of capital crimes in the Bible). American Vision's Joel McDurmon responded to these criticisms by denying that Reconstructionists have promoted coercive means.[13]

    Conversely, Christian Reconstructionism's founder, Rousas John Rushdoony, wrote in The Institutes of Biblical Law (the founding document of reconstructionsim) that Old Testament law should be applied to modern society and advocates the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.[14]


    While advocates of such extreme views are few in number, they have had a great influence. For instance, Glenn Beck hosts a Reconstructionist on his show every week, David Barton, although the self-proclaimed historian Barton has largely been discredited, his views remain popular.


    According to sociologist and professor of religion William Martin, author of With God on Our Side:

    It is difficult to assess the influence of Reconstructionist thought with any accuracy. Because it is so genuinely radical, most leaders of the Religious Right are careful to distance themselves from it. At the same time, it clearly holds some appeal for many of them. One undoubtedly spoke for others when he confessed, 'Though we hide their books under the bed, we read them just the same.' In addition, several key leaders have acknowledged an intellectual debt to the theonomists. Jerry Falwell and D. James Kennedy have endorsed Reconstructionist books. Rushdoony has appeared on Kennedy's television program and the 700 Club several times. Pat Robertson makes frequent use of 'dominion' language; his book, The Secret Kingdom, has often been cited for its theonomy elements; and pluralists were made uncomfortable when, during his presidential campaign, he said he 'would only bring Christians and Jews into the government,' as well as when he later wrote, 'There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.' And Jay Grimstead, who leads the Coalition on Revival, which brings Reconstructionists together with more mainstream evangelicals, has said, 'I don't call myself [a Reconstructionist],' but 'A lot of us are coming to realize that the Bible is God's standard of morality … in all points of history … and for all societies, Christian and non-Christian alike… It so happens that Rushdoony, Bahnsen, and North understood that sooner.' He added, 'There are a lot of us floating around in Christian leadership—James Kennedy is one of them—who don't go all the way with the theonomy thing, but who want to rebuild America based on the Bible.'[26]



    For many years, and for some yet today, Christians just assumed they, meaning "Christians" in general as opposed to one denomination or another, had the right to government support in the form of access. They assumed Christian prayers at public meetings and public schools, in the military, and in Congress were welcomed. They failed to realize that the BoR was written to protect minorities and individuals. Few of them ever realized that anyone would object and when objections did occur, the objectors were ignored, ridiculed, and/or persecuted. That reaction continues today as you can see from this news incident and others involving military coercion of religious participation, and continued incidents involving schools. I understand these sorts of violations are traditional and as such carried on with little thought to the effect they may have upon those with other views. But I would think, as a Christian who cares about others, once it was pointed out that those violations are hurtful to one who doesn't share that view, a Christian would begin to think about it and come to the conclusion that Christians as a group should not continue such actions, but what I hear from such Christians is something like, "Well, you're just wrong to feel that way, so I'm going to do it anyway regardless of what the courts say."
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    I quite agree that the court's decisions have been confusing and contradictory. It appears to me that recent decisions tend to be leaning more toward toleration which I believe is a mistake in a world filled with religious violence. Dominionists, Christian Nationalists, Reconstructionists, all have their own reasons for pushing for a policy recognizing Christianity and accepting expressions of Christianity in the public sphere. A policy of appeasement toward those playing the victimhood card whenever they are not allowed to use public facilities to promote their own religious views will not be effective in the long run, and we will be faced with violence between different sects of Christianity.
    Christianity hasn't broken down into violence yet, and it likely won't if we allow these kids to put stickers on their helmets. I think that's a bit absurd.

    It is still a free country and the individual has the right to speech and expression. In this case, there was nothing wrong with what the kids do. I think it is important to maintain a secular school system, and to ensure that government doesn't promote any one religion over another. But people will express themselves and we have to be able to allow that on some front too. In public schools there are large restrictions on that, some of which go well too far against the rights of the individual. But even then, there was nothing wrong with these stickers, and it wasn't the school promoting a religion.

    No harm, no foul.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Maybe you're easily frightened. I keep in mind that we are the ones with the dozen aircraft carriers and the hundred heavy bombers and the six thousand H-bombs, and not the Muslims who like to talk about fighting. If any of the God-forsaken sandpiles they call their countries wants a serious fight with the U.S., they would do well to think long and hard about that. We should stop worrying about what they might do to us, and make them start worrying about what the U.S.might do.
    Death and destruction are more the tools of Satan. I'd prefer intelligence, forgiveness, and creation.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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