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Thread: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    The school reversed it's decision as long as the students themselves agree and put it on their themselves.

    1st amendment upheld.

    the liberty council threatened a lawsuit for violation of the 1st amendment is the school bared the team from wearing the crosses.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    He did specify "these militant athiests" there fore I don't think you can accuse him of lumping all together.
    I believe a historically apt analog to this would be uppity nigger. How dare we stand up for religious neutrality in a state sponsored school!
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Football team forced to remove Christian crosses from helmets | Fox News



    Football players at Arkansas State University were ordered to either remove a Christian cross decal from their helmets or modify it into a mathematical sign after a Jonesboro attorney complained that the image violated the U.S. Constitution.

    The cross decal was meant to memorialize former player Markel Owens and former equipment manager Barry Weyer, said athletic director Terry Mohajir. Weyer was killed in a June car crash. Owens was gunned down in Tennessee in January.

    These young men were simply trying to do a good deed. They were standing up for their fallen teammates. It’s really too bad the university could not stand up for the team.
    Barry Weyer, Sr., told me that the players and coaches voluntarily decided to memorialize his son and Owens.

    “The players knew they were both Christians so they decided to use the cross along with their initials,” he said. “They wanted to carry the spirits of Markel and Barry Don onto the field for one more season.”

    It was a decision that had the full support of the university’s athletic director.

    “I support our students’ expression of their faith,” Mohajir said. “I am 100 percent behind our students and coaches.”

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    However, the athletic director said he had no choice but to remove the crosses after he received a message from the university’s legal counsel.

    “It is my opinion that the crosses must be removed from the helmets,” University counsel Lucinda McDaniel wrote to Mohajir. “While we could argue that the cross with the initials of the fallen student and trainer merely memorialize their passing, the symbol we have authorized to convey that message is a Christian cross.”

    According to documents provided to me by Arkansas State, McDaniel gave the football team a choice – they could either remove the cross or modify the decal. And by modify – she meant deface.

    “If the bottom of the cross can be cut off so that the symbol is a plus sign (+) there should be no problem,” she wrote. “It is the Christian symbol which has caused the legal objection.”

    The team had been wearing the decals for two weeks without any complaints. That changed after last Saturday’s nationally televised game against the Tennessee Volunteers.

    Jonesboro attorney Louis Nisenbaum sent McDaniel an email complaining about the cross decal.

    “That is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause as a state endorsement of the Christian religion,” Nisenbaum wrote. “Please advise whether you agree and whether ASU will continue this practice.”

    Ironically, the university’s legal counsel admitted in a letter that there were no specific court cases that addressed crosses on football helmets. Nevertheless, she feared the possibility of a lawsuit.

    “It is my opinion that we will not prevail on that challenge and must remove the crosses from the helmets or alter the symbols so that they are a (plus sign) instead of a cross,” she wrote in an email to the athletic director.

    The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation fired off a letter congratulating the university on cleansing the helmets of the Christian symbol.

    “The crosses appeared to confer State’s endorsement of religion, specifically Christianity,” the FFRF wrote. “The inclusion of the Latin cross on the helmets also excludes the 19 percent of the American population that is non-religious.”

    FFRF co-presidents Annie Lauire Gaylor and Dan Barker went so far as to suggest alternative ways for the football players to mourn.

    “Many teams around the country honor former teammates by putting that player’s number on their helmets or jerseys, or by wearing a black armband,” they wrote. “Either of those options, or another symbolic gesture free from religion imagery, would be appropriate.”

    That suggestion set off the athletic director.

    “I don’t even kinda-sorta care about any organization that tells our students how to grieve,” Mohajir told me. “Everybody grieves differently. I don’t think anybody has the right to tell our students how to memorialize their colleagues, their classmates or any loved ones they have.”

    While Mr. Weyer told me he supports the university “100 percent”, he said he took great offense at the FFRF’s attack.

    “The fact is the cross was honoring two fallen teammates who just happened to be Christians,” he wrote on his Facebook page. “I just have a hard time understanding why we as Christians have to be tolerant of everybody else’s rights, but give up ours.”

    I do, too, Mr. Weyer. I do, too.

    Liberty Institute attorney Hiram Sasser told me he would be more than honored to represent the football team in a lawsuit against the university.

    “It is outrage that the university defacing the cross and reducing it to what the university calls a plus sign,” he told me. “It is disgusting.”

    Sasser said the students are well within their rights to wear a cross decal on their helmets and accused the university of breaking the law.

    “It is unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination to force the players to remove or alter the cross on their helmets that they chose themselves simply because the cross is religious,” Sasser said.

    These young men were simply trying to do a good deed. They were standing up for their fallen teammates. It’s really too bad the university could not stand up for the team.

    “The university and others want football players to be positive role models in the community, but as soon as the players promote a positive message honoring their former teammates – the university discriminates against them in a blatant violation of the Constitution.”

    Mr. Weyer said he’s not a political man – but he is a Christian man. And he’s tired of having to kowtow to the politically correct crowd.

    “It’s time that we as Christians stand up and say we’re tired of being pushed around,” he said. “We’re tired of having to bow down to everyone else’s rights. What happened to our rights? The last time I checked it said freedom of religion – not freedom from religion.”

    Well said, Mr. Weyer. Well said.
    The Jonesboro attorney is a moron who probably had someone else take the bar exam for him as he clearly is ignorant of the 1st amendment to the US constitution.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    The Jonesboro attorney is a moron who probably had someone else take the bar exam for him as he clearly is ignorant of the 1st amendment to the US constitution.
    It's also possible that he thought the school's lawyer would react to a threatening letter just as she did, by advising surrender, that the school would follow her learned counsel, and that that would be the end of it. Lucinda Whozit probably was afraid that if she recommended fighting and the school lost and had to pay a lot, that might be the end of her nice job.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Putting religious symbols on public property seems to be "RESPECTING an establishment of religion" to me, and from the discussion here, to many others also. The disagreement often isn't over whether it is actually a violation, but whether the violation is sufficiently significant to bring it to public attention. Those who believe that a few are making a big uproar over a trivial matter need to ask themselves why they are insistent upon continuing an action that is so trivial. You see, if the matter is too trivial to raise the question, it is also too trivial to insist upon continuing.
    It doesn't matter what it "seems to be" to a militant liberal intent on limiting the freedom of others. It is clearly not congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion, and it clearly is prohibiting the free exercise therof. The fact that you don't like it matters not. In case you didn't notice, the students have prevailed. Freedom won this battle. Much to your chagrin, I'm sure.
    Are you saying that putting religious symbols on public property is NOT respecting an establishment of religion? In case you haven't heard, it is not only Congress, but the states also are forbidden to make laws or rules respecting an establishment of religion. Disallowing religious displays on public property, a commonsense ruling BTW, is not interfering with anyone's free exercise. Anyone is free to display any symbols they choose on their own property, and they have no right to co-opt government property or anyone else's property to promote a religion. No one has ever had a "free exercise right" to someone else's property.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You really should learn to find the time. There must be a community library where you live.
    Yes, there is a wonderful library where I live, and over the past fifteen or twenty years they have gotten for me hundreds of books on the topic of separation of church and state....all for free, I don't even have to pay postage. Since you are just starting out on this learning adventure, I recommend the books written by Rob Boston. They are easy to read for beginning thinkers.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Yes, there is a wonderful library where I live, and over the past fifteen or twenty years they have gotten for me hundreds of books on the topic of separation of church and state....all for free, I don't even have to pay postage. Since you are just starting out on this learning adventure, I recommend the books written by Rob Boston. They are easy to read for beginning thinkers.
    You must have missed the part about freedom of religion.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Are you saying that putting religious symbols on public property is NOT respecting an establishment of religion? In case you haven't heard, it is not only Congress, but the states also are forbidden to make laws or rules respecting an establishment of religion. Disallowing religious displays on public property, a commonsense ruling BTW, is not interfering with anyone's free exercise. Anyone is free to display any symbols they choose on their own property, and they have no right to co-opt government property or anyone else's property to promote a religion. No one has ever had a "free exercise right" to someone else's property.
    The Constitution disagrees with you, which is no surprise. Since it is the symbol of freedom and liberty, while modern liberalism is the symbol of tyranny and oppression.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You must have missed the part about freedom of religion.
    Separation of church and state is essential for citizens to have freedom of religion. Once government is involved in endorsing or encouraging any sect of religion, freedom is destroyed and one sect or another is given an advantage or disadvantage. Freedom of religion relies on equal access to religious expression, once government provides a forum for one group's particular expression, that equal access is destroyed. Try reading When the Religious Right is Wrong and Close Encounters with the Religious Right by Rob Boston and you will begin to understand.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    The Constitution disagrees with you, which is no surprise. Since it is the symbol of freedom and liberty, while modern liberalism is the symbol of tyranny and oppression.
    That is your opinion, a poorly informed one indeed. Tyranny and oppression are the result of religion and government becoming entwined.
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