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Thread: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    I don't agree with the complaining lawyer that this was a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. I don't think the Supreme Court's decisions on this general subject show that. The notion that a reasonable person would likely consider this small, simple, kind gesture an official endorsement of Christianity by the state of Arkansas stretches credibility past the breaking point.

    The university's lawyer seems to have taken the safe and easy way out by recommending abject surrender. She might lose her nice job if she ended up costing the university money, while no one can harm her for caving in. Or so she probably thinks. Maybe some of the alums who are chipping in money for that football program should make clear to her and to the university that if they don't show some backbone, they won't be giving any more money.
    Last edited by matchlight; 09-12-14 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I respect the rights of atheists to be such, and find that most are quite decent human beings with whom I get along very well. I would hesitate, therefore, to lump all atheists together, as you seem to, and accuse them of having no respect for liberty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    This is Debate Politics, many here make an industry of lumping people together.
    What part of "militant atheists" do you not understand? I have atheist friends. I did not lump them together.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Right, so a player as an individual cannot put a crucifix on his helmet????

    Progressives and Atheists do realize that preventing a player from putting a crucifix on his helmet is an EPIC First Amendment violation....

    I wonder how many judges this Atheist clown had to go though to finally find one that was sympathetic to his tyranny, authoritarianism and fascism?

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Right, so a player as an individual cannot put a crucifix on his helmet????

    Progressives and Atheists do realize that preventing a player from putting a crucifix on his helmet is an EPIC First Amendment violation....

    I wonder how many judges this Atheist clown had to go though to finally find one that was sympathetic to his tyranny, authoritarianism and fascism?
    Forcing atheists (or anyone including Christians who do not wish to flaunt their badge on their sleeve/helmet) to wear one is just as bad.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Were the players forced to put the decals on their helmets?

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    I think there are two ways a court would look at this particular case and in both cases there is a different outcome. So if you were do use the traditional Lemon test I think the argument for an endorsement of religion is kinda easy to make. You have a state actor (being the state school) and the purpose is not secular. Then you'd have to look at if it advances a religion and I'd think most would agree that the cross is an advancement of the Christian religion, but I am sure people have counterarguments out there for it, I personally do see it as an advancement of religion. Finally you have to see if there would be excessive state entanglement and I doubt very highly anyone would think there would be since all that would have to happen is that the stickers be removed.

    The second test that the court could use is the endorsement test and as long as the message the sufficiently diluted then the religious message would be okay. All the school would have to show is how big the cross is compared to the rest of the uniform.

    I must admit I would have gone down the same road as the university's lawyer, unless the school if they lost would have not appealed the decision. Both arguments have merits, but the Lemon test is the most commonly used test so given a decision on the matter I would have just gone with the safer, less expensive path. Especially if this topic was not something the school cared too much about.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Forcing atheists (or anyone including Christians who do not wish to flaunt their badge on their sleeve/helmet) to wear one is just as bad.
    NO ITS NOT -- what part of religious freedom DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???

    People have the RIGHT to display religious symbols as individuals..... I can walk around all day in a shirt with a gigantic crucifix on it and their isn't ONE damn thing you or this tyrannical government can do about it... Oh and quite frankly I dont really give a **** if you're "offended" ......... If you're offended by a crucifix then you're either a vampire or are just looking to be offended.

    I love how the tolerance goes out the window when it comes to "liberals" and Christianity..... You better believe if Muslims could (or had) idols and they displayed their idol or idols that "liberals" would be in full support clapping their hands like when Rudy took the field at the end of "Rudy" but no - we're talking Christian religious symbols here and if there is anything "militant liberals" and "militant Atheists" hate more - it's Christianity.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    the problem comes when a player feels that he is obligated to participate in fear of retalitation for not going along. If it were an individual player decision, I'm ok with it....but if the idea was pushed by the coaching staff or administration, that is wrong.
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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    I think there are two ways a court would look at this particular case and in both cases there is a different outcome. So if you were do use the traditional Lemon test I think the argument for an endorsement of religion is kinda easy to make. You have a state actor (being the state school) and the purpose is not secular. Then you'd have to look at if it advances a religion and I'd think most would agree that the cross is an advancement of the Christian religion, but I am sure people have counterarguments out there for it, I personally do see it as an advancement of religion. Finally you have to see if there would be excessive state entanglement and I doubt very highly anyone would think there would be since all that would have to happen is that the stickers be removed.

    The second test that the court could use is the endorsement test and as long as the message the sufficiently diluted then the religious message would be okay. All the school would have to show is how big the cross is compared to the rest of the uniform.

    I must admit I would have gone down the same road as the university's lawyer, unless the school if they lost would have not appealed the decision. Both arguments have merits, but the Lemon test is the most commonly used test so given a decision on the matter I would have just gone with the safer, less expensive path. Especially if this topic was not something the school cared too much about.
    The only way it's "endorsing religion" is if the crucifix on the helmet is mandatory.

    If the individual want's to put a crucifix on their helmet and they're prevented from doing so - THAT is a blatant First Amendment violation.

    I don't think it really matters considering this ruling will be overruled - and when it is I hope the school sues this Atheist punk for all their legal fees and I hope it breaks their bank.

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    Re: Football team forced to remove crosses from helmets

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    I think there are two ways a court would look at this particular case and in both cases there is a different outcome. So if you were do use the traditional Lemon test I think the argument for an endorsement of religion is kinda easy to make. You have a state actor (being the state school) and the purpose is not secular. Then you'd have to look at if it advances a religion and I'd think most would agree that the cross is an advancement of the Christian religion, but I am sure people have counterarguments out there for it, I personally do see it as an advancement of religion. Finally you have to see if there would be excessive state entanglement and I doubt very highly anyone would think there would be since all that would have to happen is that the stickers be removed.

    The second test that the court could use is the endorsement test and as long as the message the sufficiently diluted then the religious message would be okay. All the school would have to show is how big the cross is compared to the rest of the uniform.

    I must admit I would have gone down the same road as the university's lawyer, unless the school if they lost would have not appealed the decision. Both arguments have merits, but the Lemon test is the most commonly used test so given a decision on the matter I would have just gone with the safer, less expensive path. Especially if this topic was not something the school cared too much about.
    The Lemon test is not in as good odor with the Court as you imply--hasn't been for 25 years or so. Five members of the Court today--Thomas, Scalia, Alito, Roberts, and Kennedy--are more or less reluctant to find Establishment Clause violations, unless there has been a clear attempt to coerce people to affirm some religious belief.

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