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Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

iguanaman said:
Well it is at least clear that you wish to wage war on the entire religion of 1.6 billion followers. That is just nuts.
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While the problem certainly isn't that large, there are plenty of Muslims who are no fans of the radicalized elements and would gladly go against them on the battlefield or support military action against them, this is just more reason why religion, any and all religion, is bad. It makes people crazy. It tends to make them fanatics, especially when given no good secular alternative. That's the problem in the Middle East, you have people who are supremely convinced that there's an imaginary man in the sky telling them to kill each other and they have no secular culture or government to keep the insanity in check.
 
Cephus said:
I've actually made the point that, according to some claims, only 15-20% of Muslims are radicalized. If that's really the case, then why don't the 80-85% of non-radicalized Muslims stand up and stop the crazies? To some degree, the U.S. has a bit of that responsibility, there are cases where we've actively helped the radicals to stomp on the peaceful demonstrating Muslims, but for the most part, it's because the non-radicals aren't willing to put themselves on the line to fight back. I get it, of course, but I can't help thinking that some part of it is because Islam, as a religion, doesn't allow the non-radicals to take up arms against their radical brethren, the religion gets in the way.

I don't know, I just know that it's a mess.

And Christian theology fell on both sides of the slavery conflict, proving that the Bible is just the Big Book of Multiple Choice. Anyone can get anything they want out of it by cherry picking. The same is likely true of the Qur'an.
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Two things about that number that need to be addressed. First off, even if we were just talking about 20%, that's still 320 million muslims in the world that want to kill us. I don't see how that is good news. But more importantly, that number is somewhat misleading in that it may just shows those who actively participate, but not those who support it. We've seen polls from outlets like Al Jazeera, that have shown the majority of Muslims support violent attacks on civilian targets, and others that show there okay with implementing barbaric Sharia law.
 
NIMBY said:
And how many beheadings and acts of barbaric terrorism has Westboro "indirectly" incited ?
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You know, the fact that you have to put in the world "indirectly" just goes to show you've lost this debate. Because with ISIS, we don't have to talk about abstract possibility and indirectness do we?
 
Grant said:
Revolutionary Muslims, yes. And what is the object of their 'revolution', their end ambition?
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Independence mixed with unity, the same goal as every other revolutionary group ever.
Hamster Buddha said:
The organization isn't called RSIL though is it?
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Again, who has the right to frame and claim something as large as a religion shared by a billion humans?
 
iguanaman said:
Well it is at least clear that you wish to wage war on the entire religion of 1.6 billion followers. That is just nuts.
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What? How did you possibly arrive at that conclusion?

What is it with you leftists??? Sheeesh!
 
rcart76 said:
The KKK origin is Christian. So by this logic KKK = Christianity?
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From my posted links in a KKK thread, their origin began after the "Radical Republicans" rejected Andrew Johnson's model for Reconstruction.
The spiteful carpetbagging Radical Republicans incited southern hatred toward the North and those they represented.

And thus we had the birth of the KKK in 1866 and its first spike in popularity in the early 1870s.
Followed by stage two in the 1920s, stage three in the 1960s and stage four today .
 
Yet they want to gloss over the bombings of the Black girls.
And Mississippi burning.
rocket88 said:
There were large numbers of "Christian" KKK members when they were at their apex.
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And the hangings, as if they aren't as bad as beheadings .
 
Unrepresented said:
Independence mixed with unity, the same goal as every other revolutionary group ever.

Again, who has the right to frame and claim something as large as a religion shared by a billion humans?
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When the majority of them support violence against civilians, and you have a few hundred million of them that are willing to carry it out... Sort of a cause for alarm don't you think?
 
Cephus said:
While the problem certainly isn't that large, there are plenty of Muslims who are no fans of the radicalized elements and would gladly go against them on the battlefield or support military action against them, this is just more reason why religion, any and all religion, is bad. It makes people crazy. It tends to make them fanatics, especially when given no good secular alternative. That's the problem in the Middle East, you have people who are supremely convinced that there's an imaginary man in the sky telling them to kill each other and they have no secular culture or government to keep the insanity in check.
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All religions, or beliefs, are not bad. There are plenty of bad atheists and agnostics as well. Prewar Japan was majority Shinto but this point is seldom raised because it doesn't fit in with any agenda. Is Shinto evil? Nazis secretly mocked religious beliefs but, like many other leaders, publicly praised religion in order to ingratiate themselves with the public.

Ultimately religion is used a s a guide to how to deal with life's vicissitudes with some being more useful perhaps then others.
 
Grant said:
Right, and a lot of us are asking the same questions. I think they are afraid and will wait to see what happens before they commit themselves. They will, as bin Laden said, follow the strong horse. Right now that's not us.
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I don't know if that's really the issue, I think that the radical Imams are very good at playing the religion card, saying that anyone who opposes them will upset Allah. When your population all believes in a magical man in the sky that will get mad if you disagree with the religious authorities, you don't get a lot of people willing to risk divine wrath.

Yes, that's a very good point. We are being very foolish also in not confronting Islam and not calling out terrorism for what it is. Rather we use euphemisms, like 'workplace violence, or offer excuses such as they were late on their mortgage payments.
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Liberalized Americans are afraid of words, they are too politically correct to actually deal with the reality. It's like Obama being careful to say that ISIL isn't an Islamic group. Of course they are! Obama is just afraid to upset anyone, especially people who he might need down the line to support him. The fact of the matter is that this is a religious problem. That doesn't mean all people who practice the religion are the problem, but without the religion, the problem couldn't conceivably exist as it does. Let's just be honest and admit it.

You can see a number of posters who also muddy the waters by claiming Christians did it too. It's remarkable to me how many people lie in order to prevent the truth from being told, and that is the most interesting part, to me, in all of this.
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But they did, it's a simple fact. Of course, that doesn't excuse the Muslims who are doing it now, any more than it excuses the Christians who did it in the past. It simply underscores the fact that religion is a problem when we allow it to achieve political power. Of course, when the Christians were doing this exact same thing, they were using swords, wearing armor on horseback. Today, it's tans and machine guns and the possibility of having nuclear weapons. It's a lot more dangerous today than it was 500 years ago when the Christians were the animals.

It is a mess but pretending it isn't what it is only makes it messier. What saved Christianity was the New Testement and the teachings of Christ, as well as the Reformation. Islam is still 7th century.
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No, it wasn't. What saved society from Christianity was the rise of the secular state telling Christianity it was no longer welcome to run rampant across the rights of the people. Christianity has consistently lost power as it's been thrown headlong out of political control and that's a good thing. Of course, there are still factions in Christianity, mostly residing in the Tea Party, consisting of Christian Identity and Restoration Theology fanatics, who want nothing more than to become the Christian version of ISIS. Christianity is still dangerous, we've just had it on a leash in the west long enough for most people to forget that.
 
Grant said:
And a lot of them originally came from the UK also. What are we to make of that??
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Racist aren't isolated in the United States, but they did come to America to join the KKK. They didn't join a British Chapter of the KKK.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
You know, the fact that you have to put in the world "indirectly" just goes to show you've lost this debate.
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The fact that I used the word "indirectly" shows that I am honest.
The far right wing should try it sometime,
instead of tripping over their tongues disengenously taking out of context everything their President says, since Nov. 2008.
Because with ISIS, we don't have to talk about abstract possibility and indirectness do we?
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Trying to call ISIL true Islamists/Muslims is about as abstract and indirect as one can be, to use YOUR words back at you .
 
Hamster Buddha said:
It's not just that, we in the west had consciously made the decision long ago that Christianity would move past those archaic beliefs. That's why you don't have pastors spouting off trying to justify slavery or whatnot, the religion evolved. Something that Islam has shown an inability to accomplish.
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The people are poorly educated in these areas and easily swayed (brain washed) by superstitious beliefs and supercilious, morality based governing.
 
Why do people keep peddling this bull****? Obama isn't the first to say this.

They are Muslims, period. Not good Muslims, but radical Muslims. It's not hard and not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

There are radicals in every religious group and at some point in history, some of them did terrible things. But, they aren't representative of the entire religious group by any means.
 
Grant said:
All religions, or beliefs, are not bad. There are plenty of bad atheists and agnostics as well. Prewar Japan was majority Shinto but this point is seldom raised because it doesn't fit in with any agenda. Is Shinto evil? Nazis secretly mocked religious beliefs but, like many other leaders, publicly praised religion in order to ingratiate themselves with the public.

Ultimately religion is used a s a guide to how to deal with life's vicissitudes with some being more useful perhaps then others.
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I don't want to say that anything is inherently good or bad, I don't think that's true, but magical thinking, especially the kind of magical thinking held by the adamantly religious, doesn't lead to intelligent, rational, critical thinking, based on evidence and real-world goals. We see that with radical, evangelical Christians today, people who say to cut down all the forests, pollute the environment, destroy everything because Jesus is coming back anyhow, why not?

These people are dangerous idiots.
 
NIMBY said:
The fact that I used the word "indirectly" shows that I am honest.
The far right wing should try it sometime,
instead of tripping over their tongues disengenously taking out of context everything their President says, since Nov. 2008.

Trying to call ISIL true Islamists/Muslims is about as abstract and indirect as one can be, to use YOUR words back at you .
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I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're not Muslim. I'm not either. But these guys are Muslims, so who am I to tell them that what they believe is wrong? I wouldn't do that to any religion.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
When the majority of them support violence against civilians,
and you have a few hundred million of them that are willing to carry it out...
Sort of a cause for alarm don't you think?
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Now you jump from a few thousand to a few hundred million.
This is as blatant of a misstatement as one can make.

You have just indicted a quarter of the Muslim population as supporting violence against children,
with no evidence since you know that no evidence exists for such an outrageous claim .
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Two things about that number that need to be addressed. First off, even if we were just talking about 20%, that's still 320 million muslims in the world that want to kill us. I don't see how that is good news. But more importantly, that number is somewhat misleading in that it may just shows those who actively participate, but not those who support it. We've seen polls from outlets like Al Jazeera, that have shown the majority of Muslims support violent attacks on civilian targets, and others that show there okay with implementing barbaric Sharia law.
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No, it's not, but it's a better number than 1.6 billion. Secondly, a lot of them wouldn't give a damn about us if we'd just get our nose out of their business. We've spent 50 years pissing off the Middle East with our meddling, it's no wonder they hate us, we've used and abused them for decades. As far as barbaric Sharia law, these people don't know any "better". They have never lived under another system. You also have to remember that you're biased toward the legal and cultural system that we use, they might see what we do as horrific and barbaric too. It's all a matter of perspective, your views are no demonstrably better than their views.
 
grip said:
The people are poorly educated in these areas and easily swayed (brain washed) by superstitious beliefs and supercilious, morality based governing.
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I will agree that many of these people who get involved in these conflict, especially when you look back at how Bin Laden treated the people in Waziristan, many followed him because he was that sort of person. However, that doesn't change the fact that these are still people who are still Muslims eager to blow us up, and as many innocent lives as they can. It's the same with Nazi Germany, we don't excuse the German people who followed Hitler for their actions because Hitler came in and revitalized the country do we?
 
Cephus said:
I don't know if that's really the issue, I think that the radical Imams are very good at playing the religion card, saying that anyone who opposes them will upset Allah. When your population all believes in a magical man in the sky that will get mad if you disagree with the religious authorities, you don't get a lot of people willing to risk divine wrath.
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That wrath is often more than divine, with honor killings being an example of that. And of course the murder of Muslims by other Muslims is in the news daily.
Liberalized Americans are afraid of words, they are too politically correct to actually deal with the reality. It's like Obama being careful to say that ISIL isn't an Islamic group. Of course they are! Obama is just afraid to upset anyone, especially people who he might need down the line to support him. The fact of the matter is that this is a religious problem. That doesn't mean all people who practice the religion are the problem, but without the religion, the problem couldn't conceivably exist as it does. Let's just be honest and admit it.
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Exactly!
But they did, it's a simple fact. Of course, that doesn't excuse the Muslims who are doing it now, any more than it excuses the Christians who did it in the past. It simply underscores the fact that religion is a problem when we allow it to achieve political power. Of course, when the Christians were doing this exact same thing, they were using swords, wearing armor on horseback. Today, it's tans and machine guns and the possibility of having nuclear weapons. It's a lot more dangerous today than it was 500 years ago when the Christians were the animals.
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Anyone who gains political power has to espouse a belief in something that will inspire their followers. In the case of Obama it was Hope and Change, in the case of ISl it is an Islamic caliphate. One message doesn't mention religion and the other does, but both required committed believers.
No, it wasn't. What saved society from Christianity was the rise of the secular state telling Christianity it was no longer welcome to run rampant across the rights of the people.
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I'm not certain what rights you're referring to but we do know that what rights we enjoy were inspired by Christianity.
Christianity has consistently lost power as it's been thrown headlong out of political control and that's a good thing.
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I think tthat's yet to be determined. It has been said that people who believe in nothing will believe in anything, and there has been much evidence of that.
Of course, there are still factions in Christianity, mostly residing in the Tea Party, consisting of Christian Identity and Restoration Theology fanatics, who want nothing more than to become the Christian version of ISIS.
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I see no evidence of that at all.
Christianity is still dangerous, we've just had it on a leash in the west long enough for most people to forget that.
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Who is holding that leash?
 
Cephus said:
No, it's not, but it's a better number than 1.6 billion. Secondly, a lot of them wouldn't give a damn about us if we'd just get our nose out of their business. We've spent 50 years pissing off the Middle East with our meddling, it's no wonder they hate us, we've used and abused them for decades. As far as barbaric Sharia law, these people don't know any "better". They have never lived under another system. You also have to remember that you're biased toward the legal and cultural system that we use, they might see what we do as horrific and barbaric too. It's all a matter of perspective, your views are no demonstrably better than their views.
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You would have a point about us meddling, if it were a problem focused at us, but it isn't. There isn't a country in the world today that hasn't had some sort of incident with radical jihad-dist. Even countries like Russia and China, that have opposed us almost every step of the way, face their own problems and have had numerous deadly attacks over the years. And as far as Sharia law not being barbaric, this is the problem when you have have no strong moral center, and want to believe that we're all the same. There is a right and wrong in this world, beheading journalist because they disagree with you is wrong. Stoning women, under any circumstance, is wrong. Forcing women in general to be nothing but ornaments to a man, is wrong. It took us a while, but we in the west finally figured that out. Not to say we're perfect mind you, we still have some issues to come to term with including how we handle people who are homosexual. But our system is far more preferential than that.
 
NIMBY said:
Yet they want to gloss over the bombings of the Black girls.
And Mississippi burning.

And the hangings, as if they aren't as bad as beheadings .
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Many of them were worse.
 
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