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Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

Unrepresented said:
They are made up of people that self identify as muslims. That doesn't make them Islamic any more than my favorite hip hop group Young Black Teenagers is made up of well, young black teenagers.

Young Black Teenagers - Tap The Bottle - YouTube
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this iis just epic fail all over it.

they are islamic because they follow islam. so yes they are an islamic group.
they are not different than the taliban or hamas or any other islamic terrorist group.

they still follow islam.
 
CanadaJohn said:
When you can prove that large numbers of people of Christian faiths support the actions/efforts of the KKK just as large numbers of people of Islamic and Muslim faiths support the actions/efforts of ISIL/ISIS/IS then you might have a point.
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Certainly, the case can be made that the KKK is a Christian organization. It's beliefs and teachings are based on a particular interpretation of the Bible and, while I haven't done any research into the group in many years, their website right now is filled with Christian sayings and Bible quotes. A movement doesn't have to be large or popular in order to be religious.
 
Ockham said:
Agreed. Perhaps he was using the obvious fallacy thinking most people just aren't educated enough to see through the fallacy. :shrug:
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That's his constituency. He is still a high principal using a professorial tone to say something really stupid.
 
Grant said:
They could call themselves anything they want and still be a hate group.
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A hate group without the propensity to sell women into slavery and cut the heads off of journalist. When compared with ISIS, I'll take those whack jobs at Westboro any day of the week.
 
Gardener said:
Have you ever considered making an intelligent statement that distinguishes your position as more valid instead of all the simple-minded apologia? What's next -- "Conservaties are big pooopooheads?"

If you understanding nothing at all more complex than "I gotta take the opposite position of conservatve", you really don't have much.
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Considering I didn't do what you are accusing me of, I find your thought process fascinating. It seems that you're the one who has "gotta take the opposite position" to me.
 
ocean515 said:
LOL

Your really on it today 88. So lets see:

ISIS is to Islam as Westboro is to Christianity


As I understood it, you're suggesting Westboro doesn't represent Christianity any more than ISIS represent Islam.

Agreed, Westboro doesn't represent Christianity. But ISIL? It most certainly does represent Islam. Obviously it does. A wicked warped version, but most certainly to it's follower, Islam for sure. That may not represent how some people want Islam to be viewed for, but that is just delusional thinking.

If tens of thousands joined Westboro, it wouldn't be possible to argue they don't represent Christianity, at least in the warped twisted way the view it.

But to make such a nonexistent comparison, and then seek to offend to defend it, is pretty lame.
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Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
 
Cephus said:
Certainly, the case can be made that the KKK is a Christian organization. It's beliefs and teachings are based on a particular interpretation of the Bible and, while I haven't done any research into the group in many years, their website right now is filled with Christian sayings and Bible quotes. A movement doesn't have to be large or popular in order to be religious.
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But that is the point that I, and others are trying to make. What makes Islam, TODAY, the most dangerous religion in the world, is the wide spread support for this kind of violence. While the KKK are relegated to holding the occasional rally where more people come to them to shout them down then to support them, you have an army of them right now in the middle east with empirical ambitions. It's not just the numbers that are involved in these violent organizations, but the support these violent regimes have from most Muslims around the world. Hell, I use to at least believe that if you were Muslim in a western country, where you were exposed to modern society and varying cultures, it would be different. But look at kid like that Mccain Macarthur kid who seemed normal enough and then ran off to join ISIS. For something like that to happened, there is something deeply wrong with that religion, or at least so far as it's leaders are portraying it...
 
CanadaJohn said:
When you can prove that large numbers of people of Christian faiths support the actions/efforts of the KKK just as large numbers of people of Islamic and Muslim faiths support the actions/efforts of ISIL/ISIS/IS then you might have a point.
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There were large numbers of "Christian" KKK members when they were at their apex.
 
grip said:
This brings up a good point that regardless of the religion, crazy is crazy, and fanaticism seems to be the problem more than a particular religion. OT has some pretty rough solutions for problems that we don't follow because of our laws and separation of church and state.
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It's not just that, we in the west had consciously made the decision long ago that Christianity would move past those archaic beliefs. That's why you don't have pastors spouting off trying to justify slavery or whatnot, the religion evolved. Something that Islam has shown an inability to accomplish.
 
Cephus said:
Certainly, the case can be made that the KKK is a Christian organization. It's beliefs and teachings are based on a particular interpretation of the Bible and, while I haven't done any research into the group in many years, their website right now is filled with Christian sayings and Bible quotes. A movement doesn't have to be large or popular in order to be religious.
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Agreed - which is why the President's comments are so absurd. My point was that comparing ISIS/ISIL/IS to the KKK is faulty because the former is very popular in Islamic/Muslim circles whereas the latter is not in Christian circles.
 
rocket88 said:
Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
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Thanks for your opinion. I believe the facts speak for themselves and will leave it at that.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
But that is the point that I, and others are trying to make. What makes Islam, TODAY, the most dangerous religion in the world, is the wide spread support for this kind of violence. While the KKK are relegated to holding the occasional rally where more people come to them to shout them down then to support them, you have an army of them right now in the middle east with empirical ambitions. It's not just the numbers that are involved in these violent organizations, but the support these violent regimes have from most Muslims around the world. Hell, I use to at least believe that if you were Muslim in a western country, where you were exposed to modern society and varying cultures, it would be different. But look at kid like that Mccain Macarthur kid who seemed normal enough and then ran off to join ISIS. For something like that to happened, there is something deeply wrong with that religion, or at least so far as it's leaders are portraying it...
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So let's say that in 50 years, the support for ISIS dries up into nothing as the KKK has? Does that make them more Islamic now? You're comparing the KKK today with ISIS today, and there's really no comparison between the two. We don't know what ISIS will look like in 50-100 years.

You have to compare the KKK at its height with ISIS today, and while their tactics etc were clearly different, that doesn't mean that the KKK at its height represented the Christian religion.
 
rocket88 said:
There were large numbers of "Christian" KKK members when they were at their apex.
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And what of today? What is it with you people (and by that, I mean blind supporters of Islam being a religion of peace) in needing to dredge up history in order to support your stance. Keep in mind, all you are doing is defeating your own argument. This isn't a question of which religion is better than another, it's about which religion is the greater threat to innocent lives in the world today. By bringing up examples like that, you only show that Christianity has moved passed those stances.
 
rocket88 said:
There were large numbers of "Christian" KKK members when they were at their apex.
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Maybe now we're getting someplace. I don't know the details, but let's just say I agree with you. You're now claiming that the KKK is Christian because at it's height it had strong Christian support for it's bastardized view of Christian teachings. Therefore, why is it not also true that ISIS/ISIL/IS is thoroughly Islamic because it's clearly at it's height today and there is clearly strong Muslim/Islamic support for it both in the ME and in Muslim/Islamic communities throughout the world?

Clearly, you now agree that the President's statement was idiotic nonsense.
 
Montecresto said:
That's exactly what he meant, and it is an unfortunate way of saying it. Just like as a small business owner, I knew what he meant when he said that I didn't build it by myself, but I also knew it was going to go over like a lead balloon.
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But he's so eloquent....

It's amazing that he has such a hard time saying what he really means.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
But that is the point that I, and others are trying to make. What makes Islam, TODAY, the most dangerous religion in the world, is the wide spread support for this kind of violence. While the KKK are relegated to holding the occasional rally where more people come to them to shout them down then to support them, you have an army of them right now in the middle east with empirical ambitions. It's not just the numbers that are involved in these violent organizations, but the support these violent regimes have from most Muslims around the world. Hell, I use to at least believe that if you were Muslim in a western country, where you were exposed to modern society and varying cultures, it would be different. But look at kid like that Mccain Macarthur kid who seemed normal enough and then ran off to join ISIS. For something like that to happened, there is something deeply wrong with that religion, or at least so far as it's leaders are portraying it...
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But I would argue that there isn't wide-spread support for it. If there was, then ISIS/ISIL wouldn't have to be attacking these Muslim countries, they wouldn't have to be fighting in Syria and Iraq and Iran and the Muslim parts of India. Those countries would simply turn themselves over to ISIS/ISIL control. There is widespread opposition among the Muslim nations against these Islamic extremist groups. However, what makes this different is that these groups have the ability and freedom to act in that part of the world because they have the money and the freedom to act as an Islamic group. There is no secular influence moderating the religious insanity in the Middle East. This kind of thing could never happen in the west.

And no, while I would say that there's something wrong with Islam, just like there's something wrong with every religion, the only one you can blame for the actions of that kid is that kid. There was something seriously wrong with that kid's brain wiring.
 
CanadaJohn said:
When you can prove that large numbers of people of Christian faiths support the actions/efforts of the KKK just as large numbers of people of Islamic and Muslim faiths support the actions/efforts of ISIL/ISIS/IS then you might have a point.
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Hey John

Not sure how up to date you are on american history but back in the day many "christians" did approve of the actions of the KKK and they even went as far as justifying the actions of the lynching. If they didn't approve don't you think a Christian base country would have label them as terrorist and eradicated the movement.
 
rocket88 said:
Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
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No, it comes from what they believe. Westboros are Christian....just f-ed up Christians.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Maybe now we're getting someplace. I don't know the details, but let's just say I agree with you. You're now claiming that the KKK is Christian because at it's height it had strong Christian support for it's bastardized view of Christian teachings. Therefore, why is it not also true that ISIS/ISIL/IS is thoroughly Islamic because it's clearly at it's height today and there is clearly strong Muslim/Islamic support for it both in the ME and in Muslim/Islamic communities throughout the world?

Clearly, you now agree that the President's statement was idiotic nonsense.
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I'm not claiming that the KKK is Christian. I'm saying that the support in the Christian community for the KKK at the time doesn't make it representative of the Christian religion any more than support in the Islamic communities for ISIS represents the religion of Islam.

In other words, support doesn't mean you follow the teachings of the religion.
 
rocket88 said:
But that doesn't mean they are. If I said they weren't very Christian, would you disagree?
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They ARE very 'Christian'. they are fundamentalist extremists, not unlike the Muslim fundamentalist extremists. The big differences of course being 1-They arent beheading people, 2-They dont have liberals tripping over themselves to distance them from Christianity (in fact, usually it is quite the opposite).
 
CanadaJohn said:
Agreed - which is why the President's comments are so absurd. My point was that comparing ISIS/ISIL/IS to the KKK is faulty because the former is very popular in Islamic/Muslim circles whereas the latter is not in Christian circles.
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At one point in time it was. If you go back 150-200 years, that kind of racist mindset was extremely common in Christianity, much of American slavery was built on Christian theology. Today? Not so much. But then again, we've had the moderating influence of secular society in the west that has largely neutered that kind of religious fanaticism, something the Middle East has yet to experience.
 
rocket88 said:
Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
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People who violate the commandments of Jesus Christ, are not 'Christian':
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
(Mark 12:30-31)

But Islam encourages violence:

"The secular Muslim can change on a dime into a fanatic fundamentalist just as we saw the Sufi Muslims last week join the ISIS.

When Bob Bergdahl spoke on the Rose Garden alongside Obama starting with the Bismillah (In the Name of Allah) many thought “so what”? We said that the Bismillah is not something they use only when they slaughter a chicken, its also a call to war.

“This is the reality of Islam, it is a pagan and utterly depraved and sadistic religion. It takes the soul of a man and purges any remnants of human affection from his very being. Look to your own soul, and understand your own obligation to help the Christians,” Shoebat said.

Christians’ throats slit in pagan slaughterhouse

Christians’ throats slit in pagan slaughterhouse


The ISIS Jihadist say:
 
rcart76 said:
Hey John

Not sure how up to date you are on american history but back in the day many "christians" did approve of the actions of the KKK and they even went as far as justifying the actions of the lynching. If they didn't approve don't you think a Christian base country would have label them as terrorist and eradicated the movement.
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Good morning rcart - hope all is well.

I agree - the point I was trying to make, as I outlined above with Rocket, is that clearly when the KKK was "popular" and supported, it was considered Christian and it took the efforts of Christians to eradicate them from the Christian ranks as time went on but Christians can't deny that the KKK was in a sense a sect of the religion, one that bastardized the teachings, and acted in its name. ISIS/ISIL/IS is no different today and it is at its height and it is supported throughout the Muslim world in numbers greater than we may like to admit or recognize. That makes the President's comments foolish at best.
 
Montecresto said:
That's exactly what he meant, and it is an unfortunate way of saying it. Just like as a small business owner, I knew what he meant when he said that I didn't build it by myself, but I also knew it was going to go over like a lead balloon.
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The 'you didn't build that' went over like a lead balloon, even by those of us who put his remark in its full context and KNEW what he was saying, because what he was actually saying was perhaps a different kind of stupid but it was tunnel vision stupid just the same.

So likewise, if he says ISIL or ISIS is not Islam because if they were they wouldn't be killing innocent people, and we take it at face value, then there are no Muslim groups out there that are Islam and Islam is actually a figment of somebody's imagination. Hamas is not Islamic. Hezbollah is not Islamic. Al Qaida is not Islamic. The PLO was not Islamic. The Sunnis and Shia are not Islamic. The Wasabi are not Islamic. And so forth. It was a really dumb thing to say.
 
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