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Thread: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

  1. #221
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I've said it once already, but it's worth repeating, that not everything this country, or the west in general does, do I believe is right. There are many things about our society that I believe is wrong. However, it still goes without saying that you have a better shot at a happy life in the west today, then almost anywhere else in the world. That's where the Natural rights, (which we're getting a little off subject if we are bringing that up) comes into play. Again, the Bill of Rights is great start, but it's not perfect, but there pretty good. Like I said before, it's when humans start mucking about, or enumerating said rights and deeming what is right and wrong, where things get a little mucky. Lastly, on the murder front, I've done missionary work in Africa, and I know that life can be hard on a person and it can lead to that person doing despicable things, but when I look into the eyes of a small child, no matter where he's born, I've never seen a murderous villain in them.
    I never said that you did. It all depends on what you define as a happy life. There are people living in Africa that would probably say they are happy, I'm sure there are people in North Korea that say they're happy. Happiness is also subjective. You're blinded by your western perspective. I'm sure there are people out there who say they could never be happy without a cell phone or constant access to social media, yet in other countries, there are people who have never even seen a cell phone, who have probably never even seen indoor plumbing, who are perfectly happy. Other people have just as much a right to self-determination as we do. Even with the Bill of Rights, blacks and women were not equal. Only white, male landowners were. Things evolved over time. If the people of the Middle East don't want women to be equal, as much as that might bother people coming from a western perspective, we don't have any right to impose our views on them, any more than we want them to impose their views on us. Just because we have the planes and the tanks doesn't mean we get to rule the planet. If we want to be able to do things our way, we have to allow others to be able to do things their way. To do otherwise is grossly hypocritical.

    It always surprises people that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the entire planet. A couple of months ago, there was a blogger, and I want to say it was in Yemen but I could be wrong, who had an atheist blog and they got arrested because it was illegal. Tons of people got up in arms, screaming that they had a freedom of religion and a freedom of speech. No they didn't. Not in Yemen or wherever it was. It was a crime. We forget that our rights end at our borders and with our citizens.

    I wonder how long injustices like slavery and women's rights went a long, because people didn't want to get involved and risk offending others?

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    Depending on how you define evil, of course. According to the Muslim radicals, what we do in this country is evil. Prove them wrong.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Every religion condones the killing of innocents.
    At some point in their history, I'm sure that's true. Actually, for the radicals, I'm sure that's always the case, even if they don't actually carry it out.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    That wasn't the point, and if you think it was you missed the point completely. Which a lot of people are doing here.

    There is no comparison between the groups in their actions. Both, however, represent extremist sects that don't do a very good job at following their stated religion, and do not represent the religion as a whole.

    Anybody who thinks I did that completely missed my point, which sadly is typical around here.
    Says who? There are more than 33,000 distinct sects of Christianity. All of them can't be right, in fact, at least 32,999 of them are wrong, perhaps all of them are wrong. Maybe the extremists are the ones who actually have it right.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Yeah, the OP is not the only one whose seen Obama's Lies about Islam.

    I've used Every one of these answers to the same Apologism many times.
    Unfortunately, my fellow atheists are the WORST 'False equivalence/equivocators', Liars for Islam, "every religion is the samers". Perhaps because many are liberal/socialist/PC/etc.
    (see above and the last page: ie, the posts of Cephus and paschendale)
    Of Course, knee-jerk PC is Not just a liberal idea, but contains even most conservatives I see here. Easily the board's largest common idea, Guaranteed wrong.

    Sleepwalking Toward Armageddon : Sam Harris
    9/10/2014
    SamHarris.org

    In his speech responding to the horrific murder of journalist James Foley by a British jihadist, President Obama delivered the following rebuke (using an alternate name for ISIS):

    "ISIL speaks for no religion… and no faith teaches people to massacre innocents. No just God would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day. ISIL has no ideology of any value to human beings. Their ideology is bankrupt…. we will do everything that we can to protect our people and the timeless values that we stand for. May God bless and keep Jim’s memory. And may God bless the United States of America."
    In his subsequent remarks outlining a strategy to defeat ISIS, the President declared:

    "Now let’s make two things clear: ISIL is not Islamic. No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim…. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way…. May God bless our troops, and may God bless the United States of America."

    As an Atheist, I cannot help wondering when this scrim of pretense and delusion will be finally burned away—either by the clear light of reason or by a surfeit of horror meted out to innocents by the parties of God. Which will come first, flying cars and vacations to Mars, or a simple acknowledgment that beliefs guide behavior and that certain religious ideas—jihad, martyrdom, blasphemy, apostasy—reliably lead to oppression and murder? It may be true that no faith teaches people to massacre innocents exactly—but innocence, as the President surely knows, is in the eye of the beholder. Are apostates “innocent”? Blasphemers? Polytheists? Islam has the answer, and the answer is “No.”

    More British Muslims have joined the ranks of ISIS than have volunteered to serve in the British armed forces. In fact, this group has managed to attract thousands of recruits from free societies throughout the world to help build a paradise of repression and sectarian slaughter in Syria and Iraq. This is an astonishing phenomenon, and it reveals some very uncomfortable truths about the failures of multiculturalism, the inherent vulnerability of open societies, and the terrifying power of bad ideas.
    No doubt many enlightened concerns will come flooding into the reader’s mind at this point. I would not want to create the impression that most Muslims support ISIS..."

    But a belief in martyrdom, a hatred of infidels, and a commitment to violent jihad are not fringe phenomena in the Muslim world. These preoccupations are supported by the Koran and numerous hadith. That is why the popular Saudi cleric Mohammad Al-Areefi sounds like the ISIS army chaplain. The man has 9.5 million followers on Twitter (twice as many as Pope Francis has). If you can find an important distinction between the faith he preaches and that which motivates the savagery of ISIS, you should probably consult a neurologist.

    Understanding and criticizing the doctrine of Islam—and finding some way to inspire Muslims to reform it—is one of the most important challenges the civilized world now faces. But the task isn’t as simple as discrediting the false doctrines of Muslim “extremists,” because most of their views are not false by the light of scripture. A hatred of infidels is arguably the central message of the Koran.

    The reality of martyrdom and the sanctity of armed jihad are about as controversial under Islam as the resurrection of Jesus is under Christianity. It is not an accident that millions of Muslims recite the shahadah or make pilgrimage to Mecca. Neither is it an accident that horrific footage of infidels and apostates being decapitated has become a popular form of pornography throughout the Muslim world. Each of these practices, including this ghastly method of murder, find explicit support in scripture.

    But there is now a large industry of obfuscation designed to protect Muslims from having to grapple with these truths. Our humanities and social science departments are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science, and other diverse fields, who claim that where Muslim intolerance and violence are concerned, nothing is ever what it seems.

    Above all, these experts claim that one can’t take Islamists and jihadists at their word: Their incessant declarations about God, paradise, martyrdom, and the evils of apostasy are nothing more than a mask concealing their real motivations. What are their real motivations? Insert here the most abject hopes and projections of secular liberalism:
    How would you feel if Western imperialists and their mapmakers had divided your lands, stolen your oil, and humiliated your proud culture? Devout Muslims merely want what everyone wants—political and economic security, a piece of land to call home, good schools for their children, a little leisure to enjoy the company of friends. Unfortunately, most of my fellow liberals appear to believe this. In fact, to not accept this obscurantism as a deep insight into human nature and immediately avert one’s eyes from the teachings of Islam is considered a form of bigotry.

    In any conversation on this topic, one must continually deploy a firewall of caveats and concessions to irrelevancy:
    "Of course, U.S. foreign policy has problems. Yes, we really must get off oil.
    No, I did not support the war in Iraq. Sure, I’ve read Chomsky. No doubt, the Bible contains equally terrible passages. Yes, I heard about that abortion clinic bombing in 1984. No, I’m sorry to say that Hitler and Stalin were not motivated by atheism. The Tamil Tigers? Of course, I’ve heard of them."
    Now can we honestly talk about the link between belief and behavior?"..."
    [..........]
    Last edited by mbig; 09-11-14 at 07:10 PM.
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  5. #225
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Says who? There are more than 33,000 distinct sects of Christianity. All of them can't be right, in fact, at least 32,999 of them are wrong, perhaps all of them are wrong. Maybe the extremists are the ones who actually have it right.
    All religion is the construct of men. There IS NO REASONING with a person of faith. Faith, is hugely powerful. More powerful then anything else, it will not budge, to the death. People of faith will kill and die for what they believe. They all are dangerous because of it. Oh, and none of them are right.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    As usual, you cannot refute what I said and instead resort to personal attacks. Just because they call themselves Islamic, doesn't make it so. But please continue with your foaming at the mouth comments.
    I laughed this afternoon when I heard Greg Gutfeld say that the "I" in "ISIS" doesn't stand for "igloo."

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You and Nazi apologists seem to post this every chance you get. You must have this handy somewhere.

    ISIL is an Islamic group. I think we should learn to take them at their word, accept it, and move on.
    Let's try an analogy that's sightly more working class:

    Is this man both a Warrior and if yes, is he the Ultimate expression of that group?

    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    But nothing from my first three lines since you know they are true, right humboldt.
    Says a lot for people who "like" what you said to me.

    Please try to stay focused on the Present Moment of Awareness in the World--your President is--
    congress with their vacations--not so much .
    You've got a real burr under your saddle.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    As usual, you cannot refute what I said and instead resort to personal attacks. Just because they call themselves Islamic, doesn't make it so. But please continue with your foaming at the mouth comments.
    Do you believe that Imams are Islamic? Do you believe that Imams who preach in Mosques are Islamic? Do you believe that Imams who preach in Mosques to Sunni Muslims are Islamic? Do you believe that Sunni Muslims who listen to the preachings of Imams in Mosques are Islamic? Do you believe that when certain Sunni Muslims who listen to the preachings of Imams in Mosques in the United States travel to Syria, Iraq, and other places in the world to follow the preachings of the Imams and assist in waging Jihad in the name of Allah are Islamic?

    If you can answer no to all of these questions then I suppose you honestly do not believe that these individuals are in any way Islamic.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rcart76 View Post
    The KKK origin is Christian. So by this logic KKK = Christianity?
    Nope. Not by that logic. Christianity is not the defining element of the KKK. Radical Islam is the defining element of ISIS.

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